How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

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Mollycat
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How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

As always, it's Molly, which means it's complicated.

Molly is early renal failure and has been untreated for two years, she has just started on renal support food last week. She loves it so much she is visibly putting on weight - I don't know how much she will put on, how long she will keep eating like this, all I know is my first CKD cat put on a pound in the first weekend of starting renal food and stayed there. Forever. Like, 8 years. How bad is this weight going on Molly? - in the following complicating circumstances:

When I got her in 2013 she was 6 years old and with a lot of issues, including food obsession. Any attempt to limit her food made her more obsessed and traumatised, and it was the other cat that went hungry. Eventually she was too fat to wash her back, around 6kg+ so terrified of diabetes, heart disease or worse, got microchip feeders and she calmed down, but still impossible to limit portions. Put her on reduced calorie diet food and this went fine for 18 months, she slimmed down. November 18, sudden dramatic illness and weight down to 4.3kg in a matter of days (from approx 5) and diagnosed hyperthyroid. Switch to thyroid food, put on weight tending towards fat again but thyroid control took priority. April 2019 treated with radioactive iodine successfully. Vet insisted she should have normal food (not put her back on diet) and to my astonishment she has maintained a healthy weight free fed high protein supermarket food for 2 years. Until now.

She isn't going to gain any more muscle mass back that she has already and it's time to look after those kidneys. Her electrolytes are out of balance and urea may be high but creatinine is normal. Urea could be kidneys, stress or the fact she just ate. Creatinine could be kidneys or artificially low due to poor muscle mass. We don't know, the vet messed up and didn't do the right blood and urine tests, we won't get another chance for a while. She is only stage 1 with no loss of appetite and no weight loss, but she is getting an appetite and calorie boost from the palatable and calorie rich renal food designed for more advanced CKD once cats are already struggling to eat.

Is some weight gain a good thing in advance of kidney failure related weight loss that might never happen? I can't cut the portions without causing real distress, and this food definitely works and makes her feel better, but I also don't want to risk diabetes and heart disease. I'm not after answers as such, just thoughts and discussion. All input very welcome.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by fjm »

Royal Canin do an early renal failure food which might be worth a try, but as she maintained her weight for so long following the HT treatment is it possible she might level out once again? She is probably finding eating more comfortable than for some time now her mouth is sorted, she is being offered exciting new foods which have not yet become ho-hum, and she has a bit of lost time to make up. I would weigh her regularly if you can, and only worry if she really jumps in weight - my vets attitude seems to be that a bit of a cushion is a Good Thing and less concerning than drastic weight loss as the animals age, but that is a little cushioning, not outright obesity!
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

Hiya, my vet has never been too bothered by Lucy's lack of weight loss, as if she crashes, she has some reserves. I did get a bit of a telling off yesterday as Lucy has put 600g on since she was there in Dec, which has wiped out the last 5 years worth of hard work!! Ironically that was caused as she has been really picky with her food this year, so I've been giving her things to tempt her, I suspected I'd end up being told she had put weight on, but not to that extent. I have a similar issue that she has food obsession issues and will scavenge if food is cut too much.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

Hills do too, early renal or pre-renal or something. The vet suggested it but I looked and the wet was "with rice and vegetables in stew" so we passed. I didn't see any dry but have bought the k/d dry anyway, I know it works. Just how "early" is it really, if it was diagnosed two years ago? Looking forward to trying a few different ones anyway but thank goodness she likes the one I bought first.

I guess I'm hoping she will level out but can't help feeling a bit nervous as well. Never had a cat with a weight problem before, these 2 years have been such a relief that she has self-regulated as I'm used to cats doing. A covering but not obese sounds good.

Unfortunately not possible to actually weigh her though, as I can't hold or pick her up, I have to go by feel and look. In a few days she has a thicker covering on her neck and shoulders and her spine isn't obvious any more.

But I think what you're both saying is a little podge shouldn't be an issue as long as we don't let it get out of hand, which is much the way I think. Hoping it will start to rebalance her electrolytes and stabilise the kidneys and the lard won't get too bad. Thanks.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

I bought Lucy the Royal Canin early renal, despite the fact she was diagnosed 4 years ago. She has a mix of 4 renal biscuits, plus a few dental and calm biscuits (although only 3 of the renal ones go in her teatime tub, the others are for treats!) - she has pretty much every one that Royal Canin makes, as well as K/D + mobility, she has had 5 kinds of renal wet food, purina NF seemed palatable and not overly expensive, or tied to buying a large quantity he
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

At this point I'm just finding the early stage thing confusing. I already can't quite connect with the IRIS staging and then we're talking foods on the basis of early stage again. It makes more sense to me - early, mild, severe, acute, chronic, slow-progressing - those make sense to my old brain.

Are there many differences between renal and early-renal foods? Vet is not worried about her potassium at this stage saying at some point when her kidneys get worse her potassium will go high and at that stage we have to stop supplementing - but the only way to know when that is will be regular testing, and Molly isn't a regular testing class of a cat. It was so much simpler when there was less choice!
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Sandra b »

My Murphy is 18 yrs old and has been on a renal diet for around 3 years. He is a very large cat and has always weighed around 7kgs..over the years I tried all the different low calorie foods but nothing worked. He still weighs 7kgs and I feed him when he wants it as I feel at 18 it’s not fair to not give him food when he feels like eating. He eats Royal Canin renal loaf which he loves..RC with chicken/beef/fish in chunks...Hills pâté and stew with vegetables..RC dry in 3 varieties which I mix together in a tin. I buy the food from zooplus or Animed as they have the best prices..vets charge a fortune! I also have regular bloods taken including SDMA test which is more accurate for kidneys.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

Just out of curiosity Sandra, what are his kidney levels? I thought SDMA was only accurate till you get to the top end of the scale, then you need urea/creatnine after that?

Molly - what differences are you interested in? I can check the 4 bags of renal biscuits I have for you.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Sandra b »

Three key attributes make the IDEXX SDMA Test more reliable than creatinine.

• Biomarker for kidney function
SDMA is excreted by the kidneys. SDMA more accurately reflects glomerular filtration rate (GFR) in dogs and cats.1-3,6

• Earlier than creatinine
SDMA increases as early as 25% loss of kidney function,1-2 making SDMA more reliable in both acute or active kidney injury and chronic kidney disease.1-3Creatinine cannot identify kidney issues until almost 75% of kidney function is lost.2,3

• Specific for kidney function
SDMA is less impacted by extrarenal factors than creatinine, including body condition, advanced age, and disease state.4,5

SDMA is also not affected by lean body mass, making it more reliable for assessing kidney function in animals with chronic kidney disease or other conditions that result in weight and muscle loss, such as hyperthyroidism.4,5
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Sandra b »

www.idexx.com

This is the website and gives really good info.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

booktigger wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:26 am Molly - what differences are you interested in? I can check the 4 bags of renal biscuits I have for you.
Well in terms of dry she loves the k/d as has every other cat I've known, so it isn't a problem as such. I suppose really what are the key differences nutritionally, if the full-on CKD foods essentially reduce protein and phosphorous and boost potassium, is an early renal less of the same or are there some differences in their needs? For example earlier stage with increased urination potassium levels normally go low and need a boost but as the failure progresses potassium levels can go high which is dangerous, so I guess an advanced ckd food would change to low potassium. I think they are all low sodium aren't they?
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

Sandra I can see you've very knowledgeable and your contributions are very valuable, and thank you for sharing that your boy is overweight and your vet isn't overly concerned. Too late for your Murphy as he is now on renal food but we had great success with Molly's weight loss on Hills but unfortunately we didn't realise you shouldn't mix their two diet foods as they work in different ways. This might or might not have contributed to her illness after 18 months as one of the two foods is unsuitable for long term use so of course we don't know why it's unsuitable.

Creatinine isn't taken in isolation because it's not reliable on its own, so it's a little unfair to say SDMA is the better test. It's better for spotting signs earlier, which is great. However - and this is a very personal point of view - I don't really feel I need to know a lot earlier that my cat's kidneys are wearing out. I expect some loss of kidney function from 10-12 years of age and above and I'm happy to watch for any early symptoms. My girl showed up early ckd 2 years ago and has been eating normal food all that time, and is still in good enough shape for the vet to suggest early ckd food at this time. She is 14 - the cat, not the vet. I'm happy to put my cats on renal food as soon as the first symptoms appear, but with reduced protein in them and more research now suggesting older cats need more not less protein, I don't really want to start doing too much too early. In the end ckd is not curable or reversible and all we're doing is slowing it down, which is great, but it's no good treating something before it reaches the stage where that treatment is appropriate to the level of disease, if that makes sense.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

I'll check out the different dry bags - seems we only have 3 at the moment, RC Early Renal, RC Special (like dreamies, I use them as a treat!) and K/D + mobility. I have to say that I don't think I'd go down the SDMA route again - while it is nice knowing early and potentially buying more time, I'm not sure it's worth the stress levels - every time she drinks a bit more or is sick a bit more often, I start wondering if she has gone to the next stage CKD, and bloods are hard enough at normal times, much less now. We have only done a diet change (and that is tricky as cats with hypercalcaemia shouldn't have renal food, so had to limit what she does have), even when hers gets worse, she won't be put on medication for it, we just about manage once a week medication (and this morning, she was fully awake while I was getting her meds ready, so she went straight under the bed and was under there for about an hour, good job it isn't time sensitive - apart from she can't eat for at least 30 mins after, luckily her body clock hadn't changed so she didn't mind breakfast being at 9.50!)
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

Thanks Booktigger. You kind of hit the nail on the head with the anxiety thing.

It makes me uneasy with animals and especially cats, just because we can doesn't mean we should. For some, yes, there is a lot we can do with testing, diagnosing, treatment, medication etc but for others it isn't the right thing to do. It's easy for us as pet owners to get swept along in increasingly detailed, involved, sometimes invasive treatments to make sometimes very small gains for a great deal of discomfort, just because we feel guilty and isn't that what we've been paying insurance for after all. It used to be normal for cats to live around 12-16 years and we come to expect that and more and feel bad if our pets don't make their third decade. It's great when they get more years in good health, but we haven't failed if they get some of the problems that become more likely as they age.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

The good news is she is starting to leave a bit more so eating a bit less, the bad news is she was sick twice over the weekend. Hopefully just a 24 hour thing, she seems fine in every other way. Glad I still had some icky tummy biscuits left and didn't chuck them when I bought the k/d as she does eat them when she feels she needs them.

Brought Boo's microchip feeder back from our storage unit yesterday, Madam will have dry left in that one at all times and a single not split dish of wet in the other. It will be a little odd seeing two feeders there again but I think I'm ready for it. See if I can scrub his name off it.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by voliviavv24 »

Just out of curiosity Sandra, what are his kidney levels
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by voliviavv24 »

Just out of curiosity Sandra, what are his kidney levels
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

Sorry for the delay in responding, I had to top up Lucy's biscuit tub today, and was actually quite shocked checking the bags out, K/D + Mobility has 21.5% fat compared to RC Early Renal at 14. I'd be interested to know what normal K/D Dry is?

Protein: Hills - 28.3; Royal Canin 28 - pretty much nothing in it
Potassium: Hills - 0.75%; Royal Canin - 0.7%
Phosphorus: Hills - 0.49%, Royal Canin - 0.5%
Sodium: Hills - 0.23%; Royal Canin - 0.4%

Interestingly from my point of view, Lucy had Hills + mobility for her arthritis, but the Royal Canin early renal also contains glucosamin, chondroitin and green lipped mussels, plus less fat, so might keep her on that going forward, it also has the psyllium husk in she needs for her calcium levels. Think Hills would be better if you had the traditional CKD cat who wasn't overweight, but apart from sodium levels, they do look pretty much similar to me.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

Thank you booktigger.

K/d standard is:
Protein 29.7 - according to VCA Animal Hospitals 28-35 is the recommended range
Potassium 0.89
Phosphorous 0.42
Sodium 0.26
and fat 22

Not much in it all round with these, just a couple of things stand out, the RC ER fat content so much lower but the sodium markedly higher. Maybe one or the other is needed for flavour?

According to Tanya's Pages -
In a study in which cats were not allowed to choose how much they ate, but were able to select the nutrient mix that they preferred, Geometric analysis of macronutrient selection in the adult domestic cat, Felis catus (2011) Hewson-Hughes AK, Hewson-Hughes VL, Miller AT, Hall SR, Simpson SJ & Raubenheimer D Journal of Experimental Biology 214 pp1039-1051 found that "the intake target lies close to 26g day protein, 9g day fat and 8g day carbohydrate, yielding a macronutrient energy composition of 52% protein, 36% fat and 12% carbohydrate."
Hills k/d carb content rocks in at 40%

Fingers crossed so far no more pookeys so far.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Sandra b »

Mollycat
Can I firstly say at no point in my post did I mention my vet. Murphy’s weight at 18 years old is not a concern to me.

I also did not say SDMA was a better test, I simply said it was more accurate to evaluate kidney function. I get full blood work and SDMA done and have listed below some of the reasons why SDMA testing is so beneficial.

SDMA is a highly sensitive marker of glomerular filtration rate (GFR).

An increase clearly indicates that kidney function has declined.

Investigating an increase helps determine primary or secondary causes.

Secondary causes of impaired GFR can often be treated effectively.

Without intervention, patients are at risk for long-term kidney damage

As you say everyone has their own personal point of view when it comes to their animals health and well being. I would rather know early if there’s any health issues so my boy has the best possible chance to have treatment and special diet if needed. As you are also very knowledgeable you will know diet plays a very important role in maintaining good health in our cats, especially when they have medical conditions. You will also know cats are great at hiding pain and masking illness, especially chronic conditions like kidney disease which is why testing is so very important to highlight issues early.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by booktigger »

Thanks Mollycat - I think that I will stick to RC for now to help get Lucy's weight back down, especially as the Early Renal has things in that will help her arthritis, which was the only reason for the Hills.

Sandra, my only issue with one of the things you mention about the SDMA highlighting early is the last sentence that without intervention, there is a risk of long term damage - surely as kidney issues are irreversible, picking up at 25% loss rather than 75%, can't stop long term damage, only delay it?
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

My thoughts too booktigger, renal diets are not appropriate too early because they don't give a healthy cat a good nutritional balance, so I'm not sure there's any advantage to knowing way in advance of any treatment becoming appropriate. Molly was diagnosed 2 years ago but putting her on any kind of protein restriction would have been very problematic, at least she has had a chance to rebuild some muscle mass and really her kidney failure hasn't progressed much at all between the two tests.

Reminds me of my poor Henry with his mouth tumour at 14, if I had known earlier it wouldn't have changed anything, I couldn't have put a 4 year old cat through all that pain for so little gain let alone a 14 year old.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Sandra b »

Booktigger - As mentioned in previous post you will find all info on their website below or I’m sure your vet could give you some answers.

www.idexx.com

Mollycat - maybe you can find some specialist information there too as we are certainly not qualified in these diagnostic tests or animal nutrition ( although you sound as if you possibly are?). Idexx is a reputable company and would certainly not be giving out false/inaccurate information.

I also don’t think you can compare a cat with a mouth tumour to a cat with ckd.

Some people just don’t like the views of others if different to their own which is fine and that’s entirely their choice. What is very concerning and potentially harmful is giving misleading and inaccurate information on issues we are not qualified or competent in. Please leave that to the experts!!
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

Sandra B - thank you, I don't need or want to know any earlier or more accurately than I already do about my cats' kidneys, because the treatments I am happy to give them are best not started too early, giving me a comfortable margin between early symptoms and early enough diagnosis, and starting an adjusted diet appropriate to the stage of the condition. There's nothing wrong with knowing or choosing a different path, it's just not my choice. I'm baffled by your response to be honest. My original question was, given Molly's history with her weight and being indoor the already increased risks of weight-related diseases, how concerned should I be that she is eating like a fattypuff or is it ok to develop a little insurance against any potential weight loss due to the condition she has already had for more than two years. Booktigger and I then discussed the relative nutritional values of a couple of different foods. I'm not sure how it became so important to get earlier or more accurate tests, but thank you for the information, I'm sure it will be really useful for so many people early in their CKD cat journey.
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Mollycat »

A week on, true to form, the dog is now eating more feline renal wet food than the cat is. She definitely eats some, because I see her in it, but not enough to be sure she has just by looking at what's left 12 hours later and a far cry from the near-clean bowl we had a weeks ago.

Which means two things - one, the potassium has to go in a Lick-e-lix just to make sure she actually has it. Two - it's time for my next question and yet another new topic on how to waste less!
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Re: How bad is a fat cat, at this stage?

Post by Jeanette M Medina »

I have a cat named cutie and she is little fat.
Her K/d standard is:
Protein: 29
Potassium: 0.81%
Phosphorus: 0.45%
Sodium: 0.19%
fat- 23
She is always gloomy in nature and she can't live without me. As a part of my job, I needed to travel and she was under the protection of my husband. She was really stressed at those times and I have to give her some medical supplements like Zyklene for her relaxation [Advertising link removed by forum admin]. Now I'm in a confusion about whether this caused any bad effects on my cutie.
Last edited by Lisa-D on Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed advertising link
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