Honey’s results

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Raych1975
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Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:43 pm

Thought i best start a new thread, for those that may be interested.
So, consultant rang tonight, all results so far normal, Liver slightly raised but as on steroids he said he expects sone results to be slightly raised. b12 fine. Waiting for one more, T something? Something to do with digestion?
Honey has so far 🤞🏼 been splat free for 72 hours and i witnessed her pass a normal one tonight!, so vet suspects the other test will be ok.
Honey was fasted the night before bloods so i decided to cut out wet food with cassia gum. Since then, all good.
Consultant wants to give it another week, see how she is. He is as sure as he can be that there is no lymphoma; weight stable, bloods ok and stools better. He said the fact that march to september,6 months and no weight loss, is not indicative of lymphoma, whilst cannot say 10000%.
We agree not to go down chlorambucil route at Mo as may do more harm than good
He confident this is diet and or meds controlled
If she relapses he said we will either try a different probiotic (think he mentioned the one fjm uses) or me to attempt metronizadole twice a day 😱 if i can get it in her.

She has been on grain free dry food for nearly 3 weeks and Grain free/cassia gum free wet food for 3 days

Anyone have wet food recommendations with no cassia gum/Carrageenan in it?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:55 am

That all sounds extremely positive. Have you tried home cooking for Honey, now that she is feeling rather better? It is the best way I know of avoiding unwanted ingredients, given manufacturers' propensity for changing formulations without warning. The basic mix is 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal, but you can do it with supermarket meat if you add a little ground eggshell (1 teaspoonful per kilo food) instead of the bone. The big advantage of using human meat from the supermarket is that you can always eat it yourself if she won't!

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:39 am

I haven’t tried proper home cooking for her (yet) based on two things, Firstly she never eats any human food i’ve offered her in past, such as chicken or any fish, secondly, i wouldn't know where to start! I hate cooking and it doesn’t exactly come naturally, i burn everything lol!
Vet has said we could look into a home prepared diet and that he would refer me to their nutritionalist to devise a plan. He did warn me its more work and not for everyone but as you said, a way of knowing exactly what she is eating. He is not a fan of raw diets.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:24 am

I've been home cooking for my animals for years - if you hate cooking a cheap crockpot/slow cooker may be the answer. Bung everything in, set it for a few hours or overnight, portion into containers and freeze. No possibility of it burning, and one batch could easily last a fortnight. I'd be very interested to hear what the nutritionist suggests, if you decide to go ahead - I don't think I would risk raw with a cat unused to it and with pre-existing issues, either. Cooked is easier, too, as you don't have to be quite so scrupulous about hygiene at every meal.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by alanc » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:28 am

Just been checking on Tilly's food tins and so far as I can see neither Canagan Grain free and Edgard Cooper have cassia gum or Carrageenan in them (not mentioned on the labels).

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:57 am

alanc wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:28 am
Just been checking on Tilly's food tins and so far as I can see neither Canagan Grain free and Edgard Cooper have cassia gum or Carrageenan in them (not mentioned on the labels).
Thank you alanc. What consistency are those two foods please?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:59 am

fjm wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:24 am
I've been home cooking for my animals for years - if you hate cooking a cheap crockpot/slow cooker may be the answer. Bung everything in, set it for a few hours or overnight, portion into containers and freeze. No possibility of it burning, and one batch could easily last a fortnight. I'd be very interested to hear what the nutritionist suggests, if you decide to go ahead - I don't think I would risk raw with a cat unused to it and with pre-existing issues, either. Cooked is easier, too, as you don't have to be quite so scrupulous about hygiene at every meal.
I do have a slow cooker which i do use in winter actually. I will happily let you know what nutritionalist says if i do speak to him/her.
What kind of meals do you cook for the cats menu?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by alanc » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:01 pm

There's a picture of the Edgard Cooper food here: https://uk.edgardcooper.com/pages/our-food Tilly only likes it occasionally. Canagan "Chicken and " is strands of chicken with chunks of whatever the chicken is with. Tilly likes Canagan. They also do Tuna fillets with Mussels, which are chunks of Tuna with whole small mussels ( I give Tilly this quite often as the Mussels seem to help her arthritis).

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:53 pm

The cats usually get a mix of chicken and beef - about 3 parts chicken to 1 part beef - with 5% liver (beef, lamb or pork, depending on what is available). I chop the liver very finely when it's cooked, or whoosh it with a stick blender, so that they don't get one big chunk, and add ground eggshell once it is portioned (1 teaspoonful per kilo). They also get a complete biscuit and Tilly gets Pro Plan renal sachets, so I am not as scrupulous about making sure the home made mix is completely balanced as I was when it is all they ate.

I usually buy from DAF petfoods, but recently they have been out of boneless chicken mince, so I have been buying supermarket chicken thighs and stripping out the bones. For cats that prefer a pate texture a few minutes with a stick blender does the trick.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:01 pm

Sounds complicated.... haha i’m sure its not once you know what you are doing....
Ground eggshell?, literally empty egg and bash the shell up?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:07 pm

Yep - pestle and mortar or coffee grinder! Or you can buy a calcium supplement, of course, but eggshell is cheaper.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Mollycat » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:36 pm

Just out of interest roughly how many eggs does a teaspoon of ground shell equate to? Would it be one egg's worth of shell, or a bit less? Do you ever give them the egg or is that all for you?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:53 pm

Good question - I tend to save the shells up till there are enough to fill the coffee grinder 9never used for coffee), but I think about 1.5 - 2 shells to the teaspoon. The cats aren't very keen on egg, but the dogs enjoy scrambled eggs with a little toast. Not that they are spoiled, or anything...

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Mollycat » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:36 pm

Of course not, heaven forbid.

We knew they weren't spoilt when you told us you cook for them! :lol:

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:08 am

It is certainly something i’m going to consider. So it literally looks like cat food once it’s all mushed up?

Do you think cassia gum could really be a problem for cats with sensitive tums?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:49 am

It is hard to say - the only way of knowing for sure would be to do a limited ingredient trial for a few months and then, if her digestion improves, add just the amount of cassia gum typically found in cat food and see what the effect is. But foods that are "safe" can still cause issues for susceptible digestions - I can't tolerate onions or other alliums, and gluten is disastrous for those with coeliac disease. It could be that Honey's illness has sensitised her to all sorts of ingredients that would not usually cause a problem.

Home made food can be all sorts of textures - big chunks, small chunks, jellied, gravy, or blitzed into a pate! Whatever she will eat most happily.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:28 pm

Thanks fjm
Well honey has a bit of an upset tummy again , nothing has changed at all in her diet so i have no idea what.so.ever.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:03 pm

How many days good v bad this week?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:49 pm

Ok, sunday to sunday (today) mon, tues and wed some splats but were getting smaller each day. Fine thurs, fri and sat., lapsed today. She been twice in matter of an hour or two, both back to mr whippy poo and no food has changed. I had feeling it was going to happen as she started to eat more grass today, sure sign she not right.
Not sure how much i can take of this, We have battled with Her health since march. We have good few days then bang, another relapse with no idea why. Her blood results are all ok so i just don’t know. I not even sure any of this is ****** diet related as it seems no matter what she has, she reacts eventually negatively.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:26 pm

There are so many conditions that can cause intermittent diarrhoea - I think it is time to discuss trying good old metronidazole with your vet. Poppy is now on a small, single dose of metronidazole every 2.5-3 days, which is just keeping things OKish, plus the Protexin Pro-Kolin Enterogenic powder which I am hoping will help long term.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:33 pm

Yes, he is happy to try metronizadole but the difficulty is going to be getting it in her. He said the transdermal gel no good for gut absorption and the liquid is so nasty he said it be even harder , especially as we can’t risk her starting to resist taking the liquid steroid.
I will of course attempt pilling but after the battle with the other pills and vet couldn’t even pill her, god knows how i will do it. I will try hiding it in treats as after i kept finding little blue omeprazole around the house where she kept leaving them like a hamster, i doubt it going to happen

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Mollycat » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 pm

As I said before millions of people living with chronic conditions would love to know the magic silver bullet to kill their symptoms once and for all, and pets are no different. Sometimes there is no answer, no identifiable trigger, and all we can do is manage as best we can avoiding known triggers and accept that sometimes that's not enough to prevent an episode.

I never changed Boo and Molly's foods and we had episodes with them both. Boo was on Hills k/d wet and dry for months and suddenly the wet started to make him sick. Then the dry started causing problems. I changed to Felix, he was fine for months then he wasn't. Molly had the squits for well over a year and it resolved without changing anything in her food, though Dreamies I think used to trigger her but it wasn't the only thing.

You can do your absolute best but the nature of these conditions is they will sometimes flare up for no apparent reason.

Pills getting left all around the house really isn't good because it's important to keep up steroids, this really is going to be a challenge!

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:37 pm

Oh he did say we only change one thing, ie Try either protexin probiotic or metronizadole, not both. He did say protexin in dogs have shown very good results so far.
Totally agree with changing one thing at a time
I not even sure the cassia gum is a thing after all after today.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:46 pm

Mollycat wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 pm
As I said before millions of people living with chronic conditions would love to know the magic silver bullet to kill their symptoms once and for all, and pets are no different. Sometimes there is no answer, no identifiable trigger, and all we can do is manage as best we can avoiding known triggers and accept that sometimes that's not enough to prevent an episode.

I never changed Boo and Molly's foods and we had episodes with them both. Boo was on Hills k/d wet and dry for months and suddenly the wet started to make him sick. Then the dry started causing problems. I changed to Felix, he was fine for months then he wasn't. Molly had the squits for well over a year and it resolved without changing anything in her food, though Dreamies I think used to trigger her but it wasn't the only thing.

You can do your absolute best but the nature of these conditions is they will sometimes flare up for no apparent reason.

Pills getting left all around the house really isn't good because it's important to keep up steroids, this really is going to be a challenge!
The steroids are liquid straight into her mouth with syringe which is a god send, so at present i have no concerns she won’t get the steroids as they so important and she takes it no problem. Its any actual pill thats going to be impossible.
Interesting you didn’t change Boo and Mollys food and overall sounds like things settled. I do expect flare ups but after just 3 days it is so disappointing.
Will see what vet wants to do.....

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:02 am

Thinking hard about this, I think I would ask the vet about trying the Pro-Kolin Enterogenic, and leaving the metro for now. Several reasons, mostly that you don't want to make it any more difficult than it is to give her the steroid, which is essential - the powder is pleasant tasting, and can be sprinkled on food or mixed with water. Also it is slow to take effect, and although the diarrhoea is distressing for both you and Honey, it does seem that it is not greatly affecting her absorption of nutrients. The constant roller coaster anxiety of trying an intervention only to have it fail is extremely wearing - it may actually be more relaxing to try something where you don't expect to see results for 4-6 weeks. It is not wildly expensive online without a prescription - she should only need half a sachet a day - and for me comes into the may-help-won't-harm category.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Mollycat » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:15 am

Why don't vets tell you about this stuff? Especially when you say your cat with chronic dire rear for a year won't touch food with the paste in it?? Is it exactly the same ingredients as the paste?

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by fjm » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:30 am

i don't think it is the same as the paste - it is formulated for long term prophylactic use, whereas the paste is more a short term prophylactic. Honey may still refuse it, of course, but one reaches the point where anything safe is worth a try.

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:05 am

Funnily enough i woke up this morning thinking that exact thing, start with Protexin sachets if she doesn’t improve in a day or two. I would rather wait until things get things much worse before attempting to pill her, not just for both our sanity but if we can manage it slightly better without big intervention, the better. I honestly don’t want to going back to trying to twice pilling her daily as it was horrific in may. She would run away from me, hide in garden etc and then rare i got the pill in her. Its taken this long to get her to trust me with the liquid steroid. I am not prepared at mo to rock the boat.
I looked on the protexin website and i think it was the one you mentioned fjm that sounds ok and ‘safe’. She liked the fortiflora so hopefully she would eat it. If she eats wet food.

Mollycat i’m with you re some vets not suggesting things, my normal vet practice were useless still are!, they didn’t even offer pill popper things or syringes when i was struggling to pill her, it took me asking on forums and own research to find out about them. I then rang to ask, response was ‘oh yea, we have them’ 🙄

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Mollycat » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:14 am

fjm, as Bobby's issues went on for 2 years until he eventually died as a result, (sorry Raych I don't mean to scare you, Boo was 15 years old and a pedigree and in the end the last straw was actually being unable to pee so we don't really know what happened but he was close to the same result from whatever it was anyway) - and Molly went on for more than a year and would not take Prokolin, and not once did any of these vets ever mention that it was available in another more palatable form and one that was more for long term use and results. Next time ...

Raych1975 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:05 am
Mollycat i’m with you re some vets not suggesting things, my normal vet practice were useless still are!, they didn’t even offer pill popper things or syringes when i was struggling to pill her, it took me asking on forums and own research to find out about them. I then rang to ask, response was ‘oh yea, we have them’ 🙄
Mine are usually pretty good so I'm quite annoyed about that! But yes a couple of years ago the dog cut his pad quite badly, on a Saturday morning. I bandaged it but by late afternoon I couldn't stop the bleeding so we went to the out of hours vet who charged us £101 just to walk through the door. Then the vet (not ours obviously) said it looked clean enough and she would bandage it. I said no, with respect I can bandage it and I did, what are you going to do for your £101 that I can't do? Starting with a saline wash of course. Uh, well, what do you want me to do, I can't stitch it? How about glue, can you glue it? Oh yes I suppose we could glue it ... Good, then glue it mamma!!

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Re: Honey’s results

Post by Raych1975 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:43 pm

Omg re the out of hours vet
No don’t worry about scaring me, i know deep down honey very likely has a life limiting illness with potential complications as a result, i know one day i will lose her, which i can’t think about, i’m not burying head in sand though

Of very interesting thing, i emailed a few companies over weekend asking what binding agents they use in wet food...
First response from edgard and cooper:
In our cat cups we use alga flour & xanthan as binder.

I googled it:

Xanthan gum is a thickener and emulsifier used in many pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, industrial applications, and processed human and pet foods
Whether or not xanthan gum is contributing to the development of IBD in cats, one thing is clear: with the established link between bacterial overgrowth and IBD (including Feline IBD (8)), cats with inflammatory bowel disease should not be eating xanthan gum.

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