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Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:47 am
by Mollycat
fjm wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:41 am I've given up measuring by the glass, too - I just count the bottles on recycling day, and vow to have fewer next week...
The ones used for cooking don't count, so a little splash in the dish absolves you altogether.

My ex's mum used to open a bottle for medicinal purposes, then be forced to finish it to avoid waste.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:20 am
by Mollycat
Apparently yes it's possible, it's one of the rare side effects of long term use. I would guess more likely in fact as she never reliably had her dosage as she should and didn't come off them gradually as she should. Steroids mess up the system really badly if not taken exactly as prescribed or stopped without very gradual tapering. Obviously we know that's not your fault.

So let's say it was, then I guess you need to know how long before Honey has a chance of healing and getting back to normal?

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:32 am
by Mollycat
Raych1975 wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:27 am We moved to liquid steroids very quickly once the vet and i knew how hard she was to pill as we know how important they are.
Ah sorry my mistake! I thought it was still the tablet steroids that went on causing trouble for so long. So how long has she been on them? I don't know what they class as long term use, all I found is that yes it's a known side effect but rare and in long term use.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:53 am
by fjm
Steroids can definitely cause diarrhoea, but they can also be life saving and life extending. Poppy has now been on them since January, and I can see the effects - thin coat, pot belly, quite possibly contributing to the diarrhoea. On the other hand without them she would quite possibly not be here at all, or be suffering far more from the liver failure symptoms - as it is she is happy, hungry, walking a couple of miles a day and generally enjoying life. Definitely worth discussing with your vet whether it is time to reduce the dose, though.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:07 pm
by fjm
If the vet is unsure that the steroids are actually helping I would definitely ask about beginning to reduce them, especially if she is now eating reasonably well. They are a two edged sword, with some nasty side effects. You already know that phasing them out has to be done gradually and carefully, but even a small reduction may help.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:44 pm
by Mollycat
I know Boo was on tablets but we were told cut dose in half, at first, and keep halving it.

Don't. Too much in one go.

Our plan was to skip one day a week for a month, then give him 5 days miss one, then 4 days miss one, and so on. We never got there but that was more realistic, a month at a time.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:17 pm
by fjm
Celebrate each and every one!

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:24 pm
by Mollycat
Warning, pets and children may cause obsession with poop and emetic and loss of all trace of inhibition talking about them

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:37 pm
by fjm
LOL - but think how lucky we are that one good poo can make us happy for a whole day!

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:59 am
by fjm
Will she eat it with a splash of water added? Poppy does not recognise the powder as food, but gobbles it made into a gravy.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:26 pm
by Mollycat
I'm confused, Protexin seems to be the name of the company that makes all kinds of supplements for human, pet and farm use, from vitamin C and probiotics to the powders and pastes for helping stop diarrhoea and for different systems from digestion to urinary. Which of their many products are we talking about here?

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:28 pm
by Mollycat
Not wishing to piddle on your bonfire but surely a cat and a dog have very different gut flora as one is a scavenging more or less omnivore while the other is an obligate carnivore? The same product with the same bacteria sounds a little squiffy to me. But I'm no expert.

Was just reading some interesting stuff, have you tried bone broth for Honey? Something I keep forgetting about.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:53 pm
by fjm
I sprinkle it on food, then add a splash of water. Poppy is prone to dehydration because of the steroids (increased peeing) and the digestive issues, so I have been adding water to her food for some time in any case. Perhaps try a buffet of saucers, powder+water, powder+food+water, food only, all in tiny quantities, and see if she will try it that way.

Plain chicken stock is a bit of a stand by here - I try to keep a few ice cubes of it to hand in case I need to get any of the animals drinking.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:25 pm
by Mollycat
I'm not doubting it's safe, lots of things are for cats and dogs and in some cases even for different ailments in different species, like Fortekor commonly given for cats with kidney failure that was originally a heart drug for dogs. The diarrhoea aid from Protexin, the Pro-Kolin, safe and effective for cats and dogs. Not worried about that.

What I'm wondering is, in the case of something that is meant to restore gut flora, when gut flora is such an individual thing, I'm a little sceptical about something that claims to be for two such different species.

Slightly different example - people. Each person's gut flora is unique, so those little yoghurt drink pots they try to sell us that have 3 strains of bacteria, what difference do they really make to a gut with its own unique combination of thousands of bacteria species? I suppose I'm suspicious enough of the usefulness of potted probiotics full stop, let alone a product that claims to be helpful to 2 species that don't even have the same basic diet. Research now suggests the most varied diet possible generates the most diverse gut microbiome for best health ... so what, realistically, can L Casei Immunitas or whatever fancy name they have given it, actually achieve?

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:16 pm
by fjm
Simmer chicken - any chicken - in water. No vegetables, salt or other seasonings, just water and chicken. Strip the meat from the bones and feed it to the cats, or make a pie, or whatever, discard the bones, and skim some of the fat from the stock if there is a lot.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:30 pm
by fjm
Not a daft question, but it all depends. If I am using raw chicken, and want to eat the chicken myself, I will cook it gently for 20-30 minutes, take the meat out, put the bones and cartilage etc back in the pan and simmer for at least another half an hour. If it's all for the animals, I'll cook it for an hour or more. Same for a chicken carcass, cooked or raw. Any chicken will do, but if you are mostly making stock then cheap cuts are better than expensive breasts. Put a pack of chicken legs, thighs or wings in a big pan, cover with water, bring to the boil, turn the heat down so the water is just bubbling, cover with the lid and set an alarm for when the cooking will be completed. Or try with just a few in a smaller pan. Do Not Leave The House!! I have burnt more pans and smoked more rooms boiling up chicken bones than I care to remember... If you have a crockpot then put them in overnight.

The more chicken the stronger the stock, but if it looks too dilute you can reduce it by fast boiling, and if it looks too strong add more water. I usually make it quite dilute for the animals as it is a drink rather than a meal, so probably around 1 litre water to 500g chicken, but I never measure - as long as it doesn't boil dry the animals are not fussy.

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:04 pm
by Mollycat
What about apple cider vinegar, do you avoid it for the animals? I use it for bone broth for myself as it helps break down and extract more from the bones (allegedly) but is it ok to use when cooking up for animals?

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:27 pm
by Kay
a whole chicken cooked for 15 hours on low in a slow cooker practically disintegrates

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:07 am
by fjm
Adding vinegar is meant to leach more calcium etc from the bones, but such research as is available indicates it has little effect: https://honey-guide.com/2014/01/21/bone ... l-content/ . A balanced diet will already contain enough calcium, and too much can be as bad as too little - I prefer to add measured amounts of ground eggshell to the homemade cat food so I can control the amount. As I'm using the stock to encourage the animals to drink the more it tastes of their much loved chicken and nothing but chicken the better! Certainly no danger in adding a little cider vinegar, but probably not much benefit either.

I am always a little amused by "bone stock" - stock was always a staple ingredient when I was growing up, and I have been making it all my adult life. At some point stock cubes became the default, and "bone stock" was used to differentiate real stock cooked at home. For red meats the longer it is cooked the better, and the bones should be chopped to allow the marrow to escape; chicken bones are less nutritious, and some cookery writers prefer to cook chicken stock for quite short periods of time, so that it tastes of the flesh rather than the bones, and stays clear rather than cloudy. As the nutritional level of even the best stock is quite low I think of it as a flavoured base for soups and sauces when cooking for myself, and an aid to hydration for the animals - and they don't care whether it is cloudy or not!

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:42 pm
by Mollycat
If you can put chicken thighs wine and whatever else goes in a casserole and make it passable for hoomans, you can't poison your cats unless you forgetfully add wine to theirs ... in which case they are unlikely to drink it!

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:10 pm
by fjm
They prefer it at room temperature, but I am a bit wary of leaving anything meat based hanging around for too long so it is usually straight from the fridge. It sets to a jelly, which makes it easier to take the fat off. If the cats don't like it chuck in a little salt and a few chopped vegetables to cook, add the reserved chicken meat 5 minutes before they are ready, and Bingo - soup for human supper!

Re: Honey’s results

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:24 am
by Mollycat
Yeah don't you love how if the cats don't like it then humans can have the cats' rejects, or leftovers ... no wonder they call us mad cat people!