Molly's mouth

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Mollycat
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Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

... and I don't mean how loud she is at 4am!

I know they have some funny gummy lumps but I don't think this looks like very good news.

Here it is on 2nd February
Molly lump 2nd February
Molly lump 2nd February
Screenshot 2021-02-02 original.jpg (10.24 KiB) Viewed 2011 times

And here it is on 20th February
Molly lump 20th February
Molly lump 20th February
Screenshot 2021-02-22 123501.jpg (10.67 KiB) Viewed 2011 times

The vet has seen the first pictures and said it can be just where the top canine closes awkwardly onto the lower gum and it can clear up by itself, so it hasn't done that. Then it's 50/50 whether it's something harmless, or Very Bad News by which I think we know we mean SCC.

She is booked in for dental and biopsy on the 3rd March.

It's quite a lump isn't it?
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by mustafa811 »

my heart is with you , i can't tell exactly what am i seeing due to picture compression but usually these issues turns to be something simpler than we imagine , anyway i will pray for molly , please give her alot of love dear .
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

Thank you Mustafa, they are very hard to see as these pictures are stills taken from video which is never very good quality.

Molly is absolutely fine in herself, all normal. I keep asking myself why I need to know, and then I remember she is 14 and at the very least has a receding inflamed gum near the right lower canine and she will be more comfortable with some basic dental work, and being Molly the more we can do in one go the less times we have to go the better for everyone.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by mustafa811 »

i know , i hate going there too , not actually hate the place but everytime nannas goes there she catches some fleas or a ringworm infection other than getting quite distressed emotionally .

i bought a uv lamp to skip my vet visits and check the ringworm infection but it didn't work , chinese scam .
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

Yes it's the distress it causes them, especially now we are not allowed to go in with them. Thankfully I have a very understanding vet and we agreed there is no appointment to check her, just one appointment she goes in has everything done and that's it.

Did you check the UV lamp against other things, maybe banknotes or something? Did the vet check using a lamp? Because maybe it isn't ringworm at all if the lamp doesn't show it!
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Re: Molly's mouth

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Mollycat wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:31 pm Yes it's the distress it causes them, especially now we are not allowed to go in with them. Thankfully I have a very understanding vet and we agreed there is no appointment to check her, just one appointment she goes in has everything done and that's it.

Did you check the UV lamp against other things, maybe banknotes or something? Did the vet check using a lamp? Because maybe it isn't ringworm at all if the lamp doesn't show it!
i did try it against a banknote and it worked but i still doubt it works against ringworm or other applications .

how is molly now ?!
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Re: Molly's mouth

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mustafa811 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:10 pm
i did try it against a banknote and it worked but i still doubt it works against ringworm or other applications .

how is molly now ?!
Good morning Mustafa,

Molly had her dental on Wednesday. At first the nurse told me on the phone there was no lump, very strange as I think it's quite clear in the picture! But in fact what I saw was inflammation from a "resorbed lesion" of the right lower premolar, and the broken tooth the nurse also mentioned, the left back lower molar, was also probably broken from resorption.

I had only heard of resorption from Ruth's cat Saturn on this forum who lost all of his teeth this way and a lady I know whose dog resorbed several teeth before they found he also had oral cancer. So like you I have been reading! And I find it's not a rare thing at all but that between 20% and 70% of cats have some degree of TR - Tooth Resorption - with many showing no symptoms. Like Molly! She is having more trouble eating now than she had before the surgery.

She is doing quite well but is on very soft pate food for now, and then we also have some deterioration of her kidneys so vet recommends an early renal support food, not the full renal support version just the early one. She also has very low potassium within normal range despite 18 months of supplementation, so indications are that will remain for life. No mention of liver enzymes so I guess that might be resolved now we are 2 years post radioiodine.

Through misunderstandings and assumptions the vet trimmed her claws while she was under, which has put my poor girl into a bad state of insecurity and anxiety, so I am impatient for them to grow back. Her lovely murderous finger flick knives! I noticed her feet sliding off the scratch post on Wednesday but thought she was dopey from anaesthesia, and the next morning in our cuddle I noticed there were no tiny needle tips sticking out of her paddy paws. Phone call to the vet explained everything. I feel so sad for her.


How is Nans doing? Is it starting to clear up?
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Ruth B »

Before you get too far into Molly's new diet, i will mention that Blue, when he had to have a couple of dentals done and a load of teeth out the pre op bloods did show some kidney problems, we couldn't leave him in pain so opted to have the surgery done regardless and hope for the best, and we certainly got better than we hoped for. After several months and more tests his kidneys cleared up, apparently the problem was just over work from trying to clear all the bad things the infection was producing out of his system. With the teeth cleaned and the infection gone, the kidneys recovered. I'm not sure just how bad they were, the vets did three types of test, and two showed early problems signs while the third was still fine. The vets did order some special food in, but by the time it had arrived we had seen another vet who advised us it wasn't really worth going onto at that point and to wait and see if what happened. I think the tests were every 2 to 3 months to start with and it did mean his wonderful bib fur looked rather ragged as they preferred to take it from there than the paw, but after a few visits things started to clear up and he went to 6 monthly checks and finally came off the blood checks altogether. Hopefully Molly might follow the same path and her kidneys will improve as well.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

FUNNY you should say that Ruth, I am holding off on Molly's dietary change already, for two reasons.

First, she is not taking the extractions like Sarah took hers, no sign of problems and gums are nicely pink but despite asking for her Felix Crunchies or whatever they're called, the tiny ones anyway not standard Dreamie size, she has at most taken one and after a few seconds trying to get her mouth in order has gone away, or even refused them after sniffing them. Clearly she must be uncomfortable so we have a stock of Gourmet pates and melting hearts for the next week or so, then she has 2 weeks of Felix pouches to use up, thought the dog has volunteered to help with those.

Secondly, and I will start a new thread for it, I have noticed a glucose reading of 8.8mmol/l or 150 ish mg and I don't like it much. If she is also diabetic or heading in that direction, that has to alter the renal idea because there is no way she will be having insulin injections, and I have to give 99% priority to diabetes above mild renal issues. I need to speak to the vet, she didn't mention glucose and I need to know if the blood was taken the moment she arrived after dinner or in the morning fasting, and what it means in with the other issues. Liver enzymes are now fine so we don't need to investigate any possible liver issues, I knew it was her 'crash' and that high bilirubin was just another hyperthyroid thing. Urea high / creatinine fine - protein normal - PCV 43% I don't know what that means - sodium very highest of normal - potassium low end of normal despite supplements - therefore sodium to potassium ratio very high - chloride low and I have no idea what that means either.

I sense there will be lots of questions and Tanya's Pages are going to get a thorough re-reading as well. I know glucose can increase with stress but I'm still surprised a red mark on my results sheet wasn't mentioned.

ETA - My Boo's kidneys also showed almost total recovery on his second test and funnily enough he had bad teeth too though no extractions that time, but he always had dragon breath and visibly poor teeth. I also need Molly's full results from post hyperthyroid treatment really for comparison, I think. Anyway if a treatment isn't taken on food it won't be given at all, I am grateful in one way that things are so much simpler with her.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Ruth B »

The Nightmare combination, diabetes and kidney disease. For diabetes they recommend a high protein diet, as high as possible, for kidney disease, it is recommended they have a low protein diet. in the end all you can do is your best for them and see how they go.

As far as my knowledge goes 8.8 is high, but not hat high, my own fasting reading s are often between 7.5 and 8.5 and the doctor is more than happy with that. While the most obvious cause of a high reading is what they have eaten when, stress and infections are both known to put sugar levels up, at least in humans and I see no reason why a cat should be different. Hopefully it won't be anything to worry about. We were told to keep Blue on soft food when he had his teeth done, even to add water to normal wet food to soften it even more. However they didn't tell Blue and he was face first in a bowl of Purina One the moment he was out of his carrier. However I can imagine if Molly tried to eat a piece and it caught on the extraction site it could make her less than happy to try again. In the end sort out one thing at a time other wise you end up overwhelmed, let her mouth heal up and then see what her glucose and kidney function are like and decide what to do at that point.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

Thank you Ruth, I have read that cats can have a sky high reading purely from stress, as high as 300 mg (hence I had to calculate how mmol/l translates to mg) and hopefully it not being mentioned as you say might be a good sign. I want to have a chat with the vet anyway, ask when the test was taken and discuss the future for Molly with TR.

That's exactly what I read about the opposite needs of kidneys and diabetes too, and the vet said to put her straight onto k/d dry. I do trust k/d dry but I can't put her on dry while she can't even take her treats, and she won't like the wet so I will need to find a nice wet. But here's the thing - I've no issue with giving fresh meat alongside renal food, I did it with Boo and Misha and Misha had another 8 good years and Boo's reading dropped to borderline and he died of something else. So if it's renal food wet and dry supplemented with real meat, doesn't that help any pre-diabetic tendencies?
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Re: Molly's mouth

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Clearly your vet is a Hills rep, as her saying she only needs the early stage renal rather than normal renal, then telling you to use K/D is a bit of a contradiction, but when I was getting Lucy's renal food last month, I noticed Royal Canin have brought in an early renal dry food, which I bought even though it's 4 years since her diagnosis and I think her's are getting worse. She might surprise you with the wet, Lucy only ever ate 50g pouches, but liked renal wet until this year - she's had about 4 different brands over the years, Royal Canin did a sample box that had 3 bags of dry (one of theirs looks like dreamies), 6 pouches and a tin, so you can try what was the whole range to see what they like. Lucy has been really fussy with food, I bought her some pate (she doesn't normally like pate) - obviously she is tucking into it!! :roll:
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Re: Molly's mouth

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well that's a relief the vet excluded scc , i wish her mouth will recover soon inshallah , i usually don't trim my cat's nails as it is annoying for them but lately i had to , since nans has no self control when to stop itching and always injures herself .

as for the renal / diabetic tendency i would be more concerned about the diabetic probability , if she gets diabetic she will be renally affected too , that's how diabetes works , so putting her on a diabetic friendly food is the best choice i could think of , it is also the choice that mimics cat's nature as carnivores , also hydration is very important , i always leave multiple bowls of fresh water everywhere , exercising is important too .

nans ringworm condition is abit awkward , the old patches are healing but there are new ones developing on the back despite the oral antifungals , the happy news that the patches are healing after a while and apparently they don't come in the same place again , so once the current back patch heals the ringworm will be eliminated inshallah as long she doesn't injure her skin in a new place .
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Re: Molly's mouth

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booktigger wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:23 am Clearly your vet is a Hills rep
They do sell it but as it happens I have a tried-and-tested sense of Hills - the renal dry served Misha well, seeing her through from diagnosis at 8 years old with no other treatment of illness until the last 2 weeks of her life at age 16 ... even Tanya's Pages doesn't have a success that good. Boo was also on it for a while, until first the pouches then the dry made him ill, but that was other unrelated issues. Molly successfully lost weight and held it off on the Hills diet food for 18 months until she crashed and was found to be hyperthyroid, and also heads for the i/d of her own free will any time her tummy is a bit icky.

In all cases it seems Hills dry is highly palatable, to my cats at least. Misha put on a pound in weight in a week when she first went on it. The pouches though are another matter, none of the ones any of my cats has tried has been much more than tolerated.

Mustafa - yes I had this impression too that if there is diabetes as Ruth also said that must take priority, especially as Molly will not do insulin or tablets, if it can't go on her food then she doesn't have it, simple as that. So diet would be critical. That is, IF she is or becomes diabetic. Her bloods are full of more questions than answers.

Hoping overall Nans will continue to heal faster than it spreads and soon she will win the battle, inshallah.

She is not really responding to potassium supplementation, sodium is high, chloride is low, sodium to potassium ratio very high. Urea high and creatinine normal. Why not responding to potassium supplements? So many questions, and some answers can only be obtained with more invasive testing and really I am so reluctant to put Moggins through more visits. I hope they did the urinalysis I asked for, that might help.

Came across a lovely paragraph on Tanya's Pages - Whatever you have been feeding your cat did not cause CKD but equally it did not prevent it. A great line for the fanatics out there who think there is only one food and equally for the worriers who believe they are guilty.
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Re: Molly's mouth

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As far as diabetes in cats goes, the best food is one high in quality animal proteins, so raw or cooked meat is really about the best there is. While I know there is some link between high protein diets and kidney problems in cats I think the current opinion is that the quality of the protein matters more than just the quantity, so feeding a high protein diet for the diabetes isn't so bad as long as it is good quality proteins as it won't put as much strain on the kidneys as lots of low quality proteins would.

Tufty, my parents diabetic cat got a daily meal of cooked chicken. They found she liked the Waitrose ready cooked ones particularly (Waitrose was the main supermarket where they lived so not quite as bad as it sounds), so they bought those for her. After 2 or 3 days Tufty would decide the chicken was getting old and refuse to eat it, so my parents ended up eating the left over chicken bought for the cat, while she got a fresh one. The things we cat people will do.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

All worries are off Ruth, I just spoke to the vets and noticed the time stamp on the test results. She was tested on arrival soon after eating, not while under anaesthetic or just before and fasting, so the results suddenly fit perfectly with a cat that has just eaten and not a cat that actually has anything wrong at all. Glucose and urea high from having just eaten and creatinine normal and no urinalysis as I requested. I handed the admitting nurse a note with it all on, at least I needn't kick myself any more for specifying do not trim claws as they obviously didn't read it anyway!

What a waste of money and 2 days' worry! All I know today that I didn't know last week is that her liver is fine and she will continue to need potassium probably for life.

Sorry for venting and wasting everyone's time on this. Molly is not diabetic and as far as I'm concerned her kidneys are just fine too.

Ruth, I did spend this morning reading Tanya's Pages on diabetes and more with CKD - and finally got around to making a donation, Helen has recently updated the site and has been doing this for 20 years to help all of us with our CKD cats - I've always wondered what quality protein meant and she explains it quite well, at least so I understand it. A great resource but the support and experiences we can share together in this community are just worth their weight in pure gold. Next little gift will be to support Cat Chat!


added blood results

158251605_1390430507974431_2845255006720634937_n.jpg
Last edited by Mollycat on Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Ruth B »

Not a waste of money in my opinion, a negative result is just as much a result as a positive one and really a lot better when it comes to health. You now know her glucose is fine, and her kidneys are fine and her liver is fine, whatever you thought you saw in her mouth isn't anything to be worried about. In the end you have a nice, healthy cat, and know it, that in itself is worth the cost.

The internet is a wonderful resource, you just have to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. I know my parents got a lot of information on diabetes in cats from a Canadian page they found when Tufty was first diagnosed, what the page was i have no idea, but it really helped them understand how to handle the situation. No one on here claims to be an expert, but we have all picked up bits and pieces through the years of owning cats, and as long as we all understand that it is just an opinion gained from our personal experiences then there is a lot can be learnt from the people here.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by fjm »

Definitely not a waste of money, and shows the need to be able read the results in context. Good to know Molly is doing so well, and you have a baseline against which to compare any future tests.
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Re: Molly's mouth

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That is strange they tested her straight away, you'd think vets would know some of those results are more accurate after fasting, and hope they didn't charge for the urinalysis they didn't do. But I agree with the others about it not being a waste of money - I've always done annual bloods on senior cats and someone once told me I was wasting money, but I'd happily pay for negative tests and knowing they are healthy, plus having a baseline for if something does happen. That said, I was talking to my friend on Sat and said I don't know if I'd do the SDMA test again, while it was nice to pick Lucy's CKD up at an early stage and that I might have bought her time, I think I've worried more when she has been sick/off her food than I would have done if I didn't know she had issues.
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Re: Molly's mouth

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I think I've figured it out, that was just a pre-op test to check she was fit. The message - discussed with practice manager in advance and then written down and handed to the admitting nurse - clearly was ignored or lost, because my note was crystal clear that we needed bloods and urinalysis for updates on liver, kidneys and I131 treatment plus potassium situation. Also she was admitted the night before in order to be put on IV overnight, so I think I'll be asking for a fully itemised bill and take it from there. This is on top of the unwanted claw trim. I think they must really be under a lot of stress at the moment because I've been with them long enough to know this is not the usual standard. Just when I've been singing their praises though!

So yes I get what you lovely ladies are saying but I don't think it confirms everything is fine, and yes a negative test is great, but this isn't anything, it's pretty much worthless, I'm just assuming those are false readings and the creatinine suggests the urea and glucose could be wrong but I don't think it's conclusive is it? They just don't want to have charged me for the tests I asked for and did not get.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by booktigger »

The only reason I can think why they would do pre op tests on arrival rather than after fasting, is because of the IV drip, in case it skewed any of the figures - although the irony there is you still have skewed figures. Raised Urea without raised Creatnine can be infection related, which would fit with her teeth. I would definitely be checking your bill.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by mustafa811 »

urea tends to be strongly correlated with hydration level too .

whether molly is prediabetic or not still the protein diet is the one preferred in my opinion , you can change food and follow up the urea/creat level to check its effect .

btw nans ate a piece of plastic bag as usual and vomited afterwards , the e.collar had to be cleaned and replaced , the moment i removed it she ran away and hid under the bed overgrooming and licking the ringworm patch , it looks bloody red now grrrrrrrr , stupid cat , cats need supervision they don't always know what is right for them .
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Re: Molly's mouth

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booktigger wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:58 pm The only reason I can think why they would do pre op tests on arrival rather than after fasting, is because of the IV drip, in case it skewed any of the figures - although the irony there is you still have skewed figures. Raised Urea without raised Creatnine can be infection related, which would fit with her teeth. I would definitely be checking your bill.
So hydration, recent food and infection all potentially make these results useless. I think it's fairly clear anyway that bloods and urine for the purposes we needed were simply not done. Ironically the vets have just joined a network for admin support and we were assured this would not impact patient care, but I think Molly's experience shows why support is needed rather than being a sign anything is going downhill.

If she has to go back to check her mouth is healing well (which I hope to avoid but will do if she is still uncomfortable in a few more days) then I will ask for those tests to be redone. Otherwise, we let her be.

Mustafa, until her dental Molly had one of the higher protein commercial wet cat foods twice a day, plus digestion support dry freely which she rarely touched, plus she gets real meat treats raw while I prepare and cooked while we eat our food. I bought some minced turkey thigh for the dog to have after his x-rays and they have both been eating that, quite a lot of it, because I need to defrost my freezer this week so it needs gone. They are so sweet and helpful, offering to eat it just to help me out!

No they never know what's good for them, pesky little things.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

Ruth B wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:11 pm The Nightmare combination, diabetes and kidney disease. For diabetes they recommend a high protein diet, as high as possible, for kidney disease, it is recommended they have a low protein diet. in the end all you can do is your best for them and see how they go.
T'aint necessarily so. I did a little more reading to get more up to date advice and among other things found this interesting piece, from 2015
https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/ ... -to-treat/
Although it's not new it does say very much what other sources have been increasingly saying about increased protein for ageing cats, to the point but I don't have a reference for this that kitten food might be more appropriate for an elderly cat than adult food. Difference is elsewhere it doesn't specifically talk about CKD but this article does. Helen (Tanya's Pages) goes into detail on how diabetes takes priority but the diet is not necessarily incompatible with CKD as carb control, protein quality, phosphorous and potassium, rather than protein content, is the important factor. Some CKD foods still go on reduced protein but others increase or maintain protein content and focus on phosphorous and potassium. Interesting reads, anyway, I tend to believe the increased protein argument but figure I can achieve this through any old renal food by adding fresh meat - a haphazard approach with not much scientific backing but so far so good. That's my best, anyway.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by fjm »

I read similar research, Mollycat, and increasingly the consensus seems to be that protein is vital, and the key is the right kind of highly digestible protein - interesting that in the article you reference diabetic food is recommended for renal insufficiency. Tilly is doing well on renal wet and dry chosen for being the highest protein ones I could find that she will eat plus home cooked meat (87.5% chicken, 17.5% beef, 5% liver, ground eggshell for calcium). Hard to believe that 18 months ago I was desperately following her around with saucers trying to tempt her to take another mouthful - now she comes and tells me when the bowl is empty! Poppy-dog, with chronic liver failure, is another where protein levels are critical - the hepatic food is ideal in many ways but too low in protein for long term use, so she gets extra chicken with it, plus chicken, egg and wheat treats, and is doing better than I dared to hope for a year ago.

When I was most worried about whether Tilly was eating enough, and eating the right things, I watched her munch her way through a mouse and a vole or two and realised she was supplementing her diet very satisfactorily. Perhaps mouse based cat foods are the way to go...
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

Well here's a bizarre turnout, you're welcome - brand new research published just 5 months ago, though it is human and in the lab it might have implications.

Treatment with radioactive iodine (as Molly had two years ago exactly) for thyroid tumours appears to affect the structure of both dentine and enamel in the teeth. This potentially could be linked to tooth resorption (as Molly has just experienced in two teeth) though there's no reviews, feline, single dose or even in vivo research as such.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7694335/
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Ruth B »

Makes me wonder just where Saturn is wandering off to when he is out, do we have an evil genius with a secret nuclear base on the housing estate.
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by fjm »

Interesting - I know dogs' teeth are constructed very differently to human teeth - which do cats' teeth most closely resemble? You've now got me wondering about Pip's sneezes, three years on from radio-iodine treatment...
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Re: Molly's mouth

Post by Mollycat »

I'm sure it can't be the only cause Ruth, though a nuclear bunker in an estate sounds fun!

Fjm do you mean the internal structure of teeth? Surely the carnivores must have the similar teeth structurally as well as functionally.

Most of the science either is too deep for me of I need a good amount of time looking up medical terms, but this could certainly be interesting.

Maybe it only applies to the high doses they give when the tumour is cancerous.
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