Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

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fjm
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by fjm »

It is easy to be wise in hind sight - at the time heat stroke explained all the symptoms and fitted the circumstances, and the obvious explanation is usually the correct one. It is quite possible that the stress of heat exhaustion precipitated the infection - the most important thing is that you continued to monitor them and ensure they got the treatment they needed.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

I can't tell if Mila is doing better or if her throat is flaring up again.
Last night she was eating normally, even dry food, this morning she ate wet food without issues and acted perfectly normal.
But then when she tried to eat dry food, you could tell she wasn't ok with it. She tried eating dry food several times throughout the day today and she gave up every time after a nibble or two, but she doesn't grind her teeth or seem to be in pain when swallowing. I can't tell if she doesn't eat dry food because she is afraid or because there's still some pain going on or if it's starting to flare up again.
Other than that she seemed fine this morning, she was playing, running around a bit, pooped perfectly normal poop, everything seemed pretty much over, but here we are again with her being weird around dry food hence why i say with this thing, I shouldn't feel relieved too soon.

I want to say she is better, but we have to wait and see.

EDIT: She ate Persian dry food from my hand without issues, so I'm going to attribute her reluctance to eating form the cat bowls to her being afraid and associating them with pain now. Hope that goes away, she might still be in pain tho, but not as much as before.

EDIT 2: FINALLY Mila got over her fear of the food bowls and ate quite a bit of dry food.
I do believe that after she sleeps her throat still hurts, maybe it gets dry and when she tries to eat dry food before drinking water it hurts again hence why she was afraid to eat from the bowls today.

Overall, she put good amounts of food in her today and I'm more than happy about that

Mila and Spaska playing or maybe fighting this morning after Mila had her fill of wet food :)
IMG_3392LR.jpg
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

I wasn't sure if I should post in the kitten topic or this one, but this seemed more appropriate.
We just can't catch a break

To recap:
- Mila delayed her pooping/peeing because she had bladder stones, not so much because of Spaska
- All her bloodwork is top notch except her low blood cell count due to the heatstroke and throat infection
- 15 days ago or so she was given URSO Cat, it did wonders, she hasn't skipped a day of peeing or pooping, she is back to her normal schedule
- She has been happy, playful but not overly so, just right, eating well, drinking well, it's been a great 15 or so days.

- Tonight it all went to hell when Mila started grinding her teeth again, much like when she did when she was diagnosed with her strep throat infection
- She started grinding her teeth at around 8PM and has been doing it off and on since it's 2AM now
- She threw up a lot of white foam, same as when she had a heatstroke and throat issues, but the weather isn't hot now at all so it's no heatstroke

She went from 100% normal, playful until earlier today, to a lethargic, completely lost cat grinding her teeth and throwing up foam again within hours.

Sadly I don't think we're going to pull through, this just won't end.
I'm sorry to be such a bother guys, but just when I thought we were done, everything was fine
all 4 cats healthy, happy, getting along now we have this happen again all of a sudden

Either my vets are missing something or I'm a terrible cat owner and am missing something

She has been cleared of FIV, FeLV and FIP, she was negative on all three or four tests, however many the vet did
so it's none of those things

Her kidneys, liver, pancreas, everything was perfect in her bloodwork

This is happening now
she is going to the vet first thing in the morning but I don't think they're going to fix this

sorry again

I had such an AMAZING day today
Mila was doing great, Spaska, Casper, Kala, everyone was so happy
I went out with friends hung out with them for about 3 hours or so
came back home, all was well and then this

I've had great time since Mila's bathroom delays got sorted out, this we did not need now :( I hope she makes it but with such low white blood cell count I doubt she is going to be able to fight off another infection

EDIT: 7:37AM Mila is still grinding her teeth and is unwell
a couple more hours and the vet is going to open and I'm rushing her there, hope they don't tell me "it's nothing"

EDIT: Vet said to take her in after 1PM today
hope she doesn't get worse until then, she is very lethargic and spaced out
won't drink water or eat, she ate a lot yesterday.
Gave her some water with a syringe, which she accepted and drank happily tho
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by fjm »

Is it possible there is something in the flat she has eaten or licked? It is odd that she should have been fine for weeks, and suddenly show the same symptoms. It could be something systemic that does not show up in blood tests of course, but there are some plants and other toxins that can cause leucopenia.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

We don't have any plants or toxins
Also Mila never puts anything in her mouth that isn't her own food
I'm not ruling it out, but I don't know what it could possibly be

If anyone puts random things in their mouth it's Casper and Spaska, but Mila and Kala are the opposite.

I think it's reoccurring infection because her immune system messed up
but it's downright shocking to see my perfectly normal, happy and seemingly healthy cat turn into a vacant, teeth grinding foam spitting sad cat in a matter of seconds.

I hope the vet is going to listen my explanation carefully
they're always so crowded and busy they often kinda space out too and lose themselves in what you're explaining/telling them
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

Mila just went to eat dry food, before I could grab the phone to record her, as soon as she put some kibble in her mouth she shook her head in pain and started grinding her teeth.
She did this last time too

I suspected a bad tooth then but the vet said it was her throat
I strongly suspect a bad tooth now as well, because the moment she took kibble in her mouth she was in very clear pain

Other than that she appears well, went to the bathroom regularly this morning and all
but the vet strongly insisted all her teeth are fine last time
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by booktigger »

Fingers crossed for her app later, do keep us posted
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Kay »

when my Tiffany reacted to food in just the way you describe, the vet insisted there was no problem in her mouth, but when they anaethetized her at my insistence to have a proper look, they found a loose tooth with an infected root - once it was removed she was absolutely fine

cats don't just sit patiently with their mouths wide open for as long as it takes to do a thorough investigation, so I think mouth problems are often missed
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

I fully agree with this but the vet refused to do that last time.
He saw her throat was a mess and that was it even tho I insisted throat infections like that could be secondary to prolonged tooth issues.
One of her teeth is darker, but not loose and she doesn't mind us touching it.
My mom carefully gently knocked on all her teeth just now, Mila let her do it and there was no reaction from Mila.

I'm going to insist the vet examines her teeth better but I have a feeling they're going to refuse
then again they know by now that when I insist on something I always turn out to be right and last time with the bladder stones the vet admitted as much, so we'll see.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Mollycat »

My lad used to make this awful grinding noise like a donkey crunching carrots. He had a dental and one extraction previously but he had a second dental with two nights in hospital on IV fluids because of his kidneys and no extractions or major problems, just a descale. But it did stop the random donkey crunching carrots outside my bedroom door at night.

You have incredibly docile cats, Joe. Even my ragdoll would fight and bite!
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

Thank you all so much for being kind and patient with me
Mila had some wet food, she gulped down the sauce but whenever she'd try to eat any of the actual meat pieces she'd start grinding and drooling foam.
I'm 90% this is a tooth issue, but proving that and finding out is going to be very hard.
The vet won't free up until 4PM now :(

EDIT: As for my cats being docile, they are, especially Casper. Spaska isn't tho, but Mila freaks out too and can scratch and bite too if she's had a bad experience with something before, but touching the inside of her mouth/teeth has never been an issue for her so she let us do that now.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

The vet cancelled on me today, because he had major surgeries to do and wanted to give Mila his full attention, so he said to come in tomorrow at 1:30PM. Since she is relatively fine and goes to the bathroom regularly, is alert when addressed and drinks water and eats the sauce of the wet food on her own it's not super urgent.

In the meantime tho, we took pics and I THINK it's Stomatitis, the ohter side of her mouth isn't like this.

We've consulted the vet about the darkened tooth before, I've insisted it could be the cause of bacterial infections but he said it's not a big deal.

Either way, her gums look inflamed to me
IMG_4435.JPG
IMG_4437.JPG
I'd say an early onset of Stomatitis which started last night at around 8PM

EDIT: the dark parts of her skin/lower lip are normal, it's just her pigmentation
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Mollycat »

I did quite a bit of reading when Molly had her dental to find out what FORLS were. Apparently true caries like we get are very rare in carnivorous pets because the structural layout of the teeth is very different and their food is very different, only 5% of the bad teeth seen by vets. What's caught my eye is two things - the two little red dots at the very back of the upper gum and the gumline inflammation around that tooth. She should have two premolars and one molar so if that is the molar it looks in your picture as if she is missing the first premolar, or is that just the angle of the picture? But yes the bottom jaw looks very swollen but not red, is it? I have never seen stomatitis but I thought it would be very red and inflamed.

For reference this was Molly's FORL - resorbing tooth - first right lower premolar. It looked like a lump and she had it for a long time and it never bothered her, but it bothered me!
20210102_091652.jpg

If it's any help here is the dental anatomy of cats http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pa ... tpage.html
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

I couldn't tell you if she is missing a tooth or not honestly
the vets never said anything, but a persian's teeth placement/jaw structure can be a tad weird

If it is stomatitis it seems the only way to permanently fix it is full on tooth extraction of all teeth but supposedly that doesn't bother cats and they live much happier lives
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

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After taking those pics and self diagnosing it's Stomatitis
my mom make a concoction of baking soda and water which is her main go-to anti inflammatory solution for sore throat, canker sores and such. She rinsed Mila's mouth several times and sure enough a couple hours later, Mila was able to eat wet food which she could barely do this morning.
It wasn't ideal, but she got enough food in her, she was still in pain but no teeth grinding or foam spitting.

While this is a temporary solution
knowing what the cause for her teeth grinding was, helped us take a course of action that works for us humans and it worked for Mila too, of course after checking if baking soda is bad for cats.

This is by no means a final solution
but it did ease her pain, she hasn't ground her teeth once since

Stomatitis is something we'll be dealing with for years now most likely, I just hope my vets know how to handle Stomatitis and can give us good meds and advice.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Ruth B »

I'm not entirely sure it is Stomatitis, it might just be bad Gingivitis, but i would say she does need a dental done regardless. Even if all that is needed is a good cleaning it does mean the vet can really check the teeth out properly. The grinding, in my mind is probably a loose tooth, which is grinding against the other teeth alongside it and the ones opposing it, and any irritation like that will make her salivate more, saliva is the body's way of cleaning the mouth as best it can. Once a tooth is loose there is the possibility of bacteria getting in and causing an infection, which in the worst case scenario forms an abscess, which is incredibly painful, but easily fixed by making it so the abscess can drain. My Father was a dentist and an abscess was something he accepted as a true emergency, they can flare up very quickly and are incredibly painful, but after being seen the patient had almost instant relief. it wasn't uncommon for him to open the surgery at 9 or 10 o'clock at night if a regular rang up with an abscess. At the end of the day, giving her a dental won't do any harm and will rule out any possible cause due to teeth problems. Any antibiotics she had previously would also have helped calm any dental infection down, and possibly even reduce an abscess a bit, which would explain why she recovered for a while and then the problem returned.

Saturn, my 6 year old lad, also had resorbative legions on his teeth, meaning that his body decided to breakdown the teeth for no apparent reason. He had really bad breath for quite some time, and the vets said he needed his teeth looking at 'soon', but never pushed it. Then he lost a canine, so I wanted it checked out and the root removed in necessary. He must have been on the operating table for over 2 hours, while they checked him out as they rang me twice regarding the treatment. All his incisors at the front had gone, his pre molars had gone, and his molars at the back were disappearing rapidly and would be best removed. Knowing he had the problem and that this was likely to happen at some point, I told them to go ahead with any extraction they thought necessary. He came home with one upper canine and two lower ones, one of the lower ones has since gone, as we were warned they might, and the remaining upper one is showing signs of coming loose. Before he is much older he won't have a single tooth left, and I know he won't care. As he has access to outside, he had the chance to hunt when he was younger, and brought us quite a few mice, even with only 2 teeth left, he can still catch a mouse, but he isn't quite as good at killing them as he used to be, getting the killing bite in must be hard when all he can do is give them a good gumming. As for eating, he doesn't have a problem, wet food, dry food, treats, cooked meat, the occasional bit of raw, all vanishes, a cats tongue is designed in part to shred meat from bones, so teeth aren't quite so important to them as to us.
I once heard it said that a cat with no teeth is in a far better state than a cat with a mouthful of teeth and just one being bad. I would say try and push for Milla to have a dental done, if for no other reason than her gums are inflamed and giving the teeth a good clean will help that, and while she is under a full inspection and carrying out any other work necessary can be done.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I've been asking my vets to clean Mila's teeth for a while now, but they kept saying her teeth are fine after a quick check up because they genuinely don't like putting cats under anesthesia if they can avoid it, which I understand.
It's clear she needs dental care tho, I'm sure Kala and Casper need it too.

Good news is, the baking soda/water mix helped so much, she was able to eat dry food this morning with much less pain and effort, I'm very happy about that.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

Just came back from the vet, it's mostly decent news
It's not great, but it's not bad either.

- The vet did bloodwork and all that again, Mila's white cell count is increasing which is great
her thrombocytes were low too but they've gone up as well. Meaning the Immuno-Globulin meds Mila is taking are working for now.
- ALL her bladder stones except one are gone, it's 1.5mm and the vet said she should be able to pee it out no problem, she has peed the rest out, there were quite a few, she hasn't had any bathroom issues since August 6th, so that's great.
- I was correct to diagnose Stomatitis, he is reluctant about putting pets under anesthesia so he prescribed a plaque cleaning solution for the teeth, it should show results in 15 days to a month, if it doesn't then we can opt for laser cleaning.
- He was strongly against using painkillers and other pills, because according to him we can't monitor her condition with those, I don't agree but that's what both vets agreed on there, plus she doesn't need any more meds with her immune system the way it is, she just needs immune boosters like the Immuno-Globulin she is taking.
- Mila should keep taking her Immuno Globulin meds for her blood, they're doing a good job and she should also keep taking Urso Cat for the bladder because it has shown remarkable results. The vet suggested the other two persians to take immuno-globulin for a bit as well.
- Everyone should drink from the water mixed with the teeth cleaning solution, including Spaska, it's good for all 4.

Overall, the stomatitis is going to be the most annoying issue, I disagree with the vet on not putting the cat under and thoroughly checking her teeth and laser cleaning them, but they were very opposed to putting a cat under if there's no need for that which I also respect.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by fjm »

Sounds promising, but like you I think the anaesthetic is the lesser risk when there is severe gum infection. Plaque removers can help keep teeth clean, but are unlikely to help with infection that is already below the gum line. I have toy dogs, and have tried practically everything out there to keep their teeth healthy over the years - the only real solution for them is daily brushing with an enzyme toothpaste and a dental under anaesthetic when that fails. Of all the other treatments I tried the Petzlife gel was the most effective, if your animals can bear the taste!
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Mollycat »

If Mila lets you rinse her mouth with bicarb solution she might let you brush her teeth.

I used a plaque potion in the cats' water until 4 years ago as I can't afford to put it in the dog's water as well. In 6 years Boo had two dentals including one extraction the first time, between age 8 and 15. I'm not sure the stuff made a great deal of difference.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

So I should brush her teeth with baking soda?
Damp toothbrush, some baking soda solution and that's it? I could try, she doesn't seem to mind the taste of soda or the rinsing
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Mollycat »

Oh I don't know about using baking soda to brush, I have never brushed a cat's teeth but I understand some people do. Don't use human toothpaste, it's toxic, I know that much.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by fjm »

I recommend the Virbac toothpaste if you can find it: https://www.viovet.co.uk/Virbac-CET-Enz ... gIWUvD_BwE. I wouldn't use baking soda - she is liable to swallow it and that would not be good long term.
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Re: Just when everything seems fine something terrible happens :( Mila might die

Post by Joe_Danger »

Doubt we can find that here but I'll give it a shot
After mu last post I did some reading on Soda Bicarbonate/Baking Soda and apparently it's not toxic to cats unless they eat a lot of it
this is a concoction that is mostly water so it should be fine.
Apparently you can brush their teeth with it too, so who knows.

I'm upset at the vet he didn't want to prescribe any kind of pain relievers because he wants us to monitor the situation, but if Mila is in pain and starts avoiding food like she did last time how is that good? The Soda thing helped her tho, so tonight she ate both dry and wet food but I honestly can't tell how much of it she eats and how much of it she spits out.
She has been good about seemingly eating normally today, no teeth grinding at all either.

There's this darkened tooth she has, it could potentially be something but the vets don't think it's worth looking into and insist her teeth are fine. Maybe they are who knows.
She did pee out all but one bladder stones like the vet said she would, so that's good.
Her bloodwork got better form the meds they prescribed, so that's another positive.

So I guess they know what they're doing even if it's not quite the same as what all those sites on stomatitis I read say they should be doing, mainly the pain relievers.
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