Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

For all your feline miscellany - any interesting stories, news or subjects that do not fit in the other sections.
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Joe_Danger
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Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

Hello everyone. I'm a first time cat owner and I must admit they're a handful tho they are wonderful creatures.....wait what? Oh right, well you see until now I've owned PERSIANS and there's a night and day difference between persian kittens, cats and an actual CAT.
From communication to showing affection, from mischief to flat out destruction to how fast they move around.
I've never seen anything like this lil lady here

Kittens can be both fascinating and frightening while persian kittens are just that, fluff balls that can be hyper but nowhere near as hyper as a regular kitten like Spaska :)
My persians are 6 and 7.5 years old and they still struggle to open doors...but doors are of no concern to Spaska who isn't even 4 months at the time of me writing this topic.

I've never seen a persian grab a food bowl with their paws or mouth and pull it towards them, but Spaska sure does this.

Never seen a persian play with the literal litterbox...well Spaska's favorite playmate when not harassing Mila is one of the litterboxes, she fights it, pulls it around, kicks it.

From playing with and around water to playing with the litterboxes, showing affection by running up to me and licking me like a puppy to biting a little too hard due to single kitten syndrome at times I genuinely can't tell if I've adopted a puppy or a kitten. Only thing she doesn't do is play fetch where as per some miracle the Persians all do.

I just wanted to share this
I don't know where we're going but whatever happens Spaska has been an eye opening experience to me. I always thought of myself as an experienced cat and kitten owner for the past decade or so but no, she took everything I thought I knew and turned it upside down.

Spaska and Mila enjoying some dry food together before Spaska goes on a persian harassment spree
viber_image_2021-09-28_19-22-04-409LR.jpg
It's fascinating how different cat breeds can be.
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fjm
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by fjm »

I am strongly reminded of a book I read many years ago - Minka and Curdy, by Antonia White. I think you would enjoy it, if you could lay your hands on a copy.
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Ruth B
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Ruth B »

I've known a few long haired cats, my own Ragdoll, Blue, a friends Persian from many years ago and a few long haired moggies as well, and there did seem to be one thing they all had in common, they may have been at the front of the queue when fur was being handed out, but they were at the back when it came to brains, as we used to put it with Blue, he wasn't the sharpest knife in the block, more of a spoon really. I am sure that is is just coincidence and there is no true correlation between coat density and length and the cats IQ rating, but you have to wonder.
Also not wanting to push the stereotypes any further, it does look like Spaska is a dark tortie, and torties are known for tortitude, more intelligent and up to more trouble than any other coloured moggy.
Not wanting to make this into a book list, but i have to suggest Terry Pratchets The Unadulterated Cat, where he goes on to describe all the foibles of the the Real Cat, as opposed to the pedigree cat, and there is a lot of truth in that book, for all of having to keep stopping reading it to laugh at it.
I have to admit to being glad she is still with you.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

I might pick that one up Ruth, so far my favourite Pratchett by far is Reaper Man but I am fond of his distinctive style and intriguing ideas.

I have to agree on the hair/brains inverse correlation. Perhaps that's the origin of the term hair-brained? (It isn't - the term is hare-brained and I've no idea of its roots) My Raggy Boo was also at the back of the queue. I remember one night I could hear his pitiful wowling and eventually despite my encouraging calling it got no nearer, so I finally got up and went searching for him. Poor love was stuck in the walk-in cupboard - with a light door that opened outward and wasn't on the latch, so all he needed to do was give is the gentlest nudge to freedom. Daft Old Wusstat, my partner called him.

Perhaps it wouldn't have been so obvious if he hadn't been paired with super sharp common "real cat" Molly. They had microchip feeders, Boo always went left and Molly to the right, so I had to get the feeders the right way around. Once I got it wrong. Molly eventually figured it out, and I realised when I saw her eating on the left. Boo just looked sad and hungry. Funny little animals.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

Well Spaska is definitely a dark tortie and Mila is a deluted one and she was extremely hyper as a kitten/young cat but nowhere near Spaska levels of hyperactivity, she is still a persian.
It's not just the length of the hair but the particular breed, I had a semi-long haired cat as a kid, Leo, he was definitely a "real" cat, opening doors and all that but it took him longer to learn that stuff than it did Spaska.
Persians are very calm, slow cats by nature, it's the main reason I keep them because I'm a calm, slow guy myself so we work co exist perfectly together.
Having 3 persians feels like having one big cat 99% of the time and I STRONGLY regret not keeping Medo and Marco too. Spaska however has been worth 3 cats alone lol

Thanks for suggesting books, but I'm not much of a book guy myself, I illustrate them but I have no patience to read them, but you never know, maybe some day :)

And yeah Spaska is still here, as long as she doesn't harass Mila it's all good
she ramps up the harassment on some days and it gets very bad but for the most part she keeps it at tolerable levels I think. I have Mila scheduled to go to the litterbox when I'm home and can separate Spaska while supervised which works MOST of the time, so there's one worry taken care of for the past month and or so.
We'll see where we're going honestly, even I don't know
but we haven't had any major incidents since that one time Spaska was very aggressive to Mila, they had some squabbles last night, Spaska was at Mila's every step for 2 hours straight but it didn't end with any major drama so it's fine.

This topic was more about how fascinated I am with the sheer difference between persian cats and a non persian should I say, regular cat.

EDIT: as for intelligence
pretty sure I've read many an article and site that no persian cats are not among the most intelligent of felines, quite the contrary.
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Mollycat
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

Well, I believe Persians were a key part of the Ragdoll breed development early on. The breed founder, a white cat named Josephine, was a Persian/Angora type but not a registered pedigree. Her kittens all had this docile gentle temperament and all Raggies trace their pedigree back to this one cat in the 1960s. I'm no expert but that sounds like a high level of inbreeding to me, and Raggies and Persians have the same major genetic faults of PKD and HCM, so being a bit dim could quite easily be added to the list.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

Ragdolls are amazing, I don't think I've seen many on sale here but Persians are very common
I've been wanting a raddoll for years but the health issues are what puts me off from the breed, supposedly ragamuffins are the healthy variant but I've never ever seen those here.
I don't trust Macedonian breeders tho, my mom's friend got a british shorthair from a supposedly reputable breeder and the kitten came with worms, some sort of infection, the breeder insisted on giving it up at a one month and 2-3 weeks which is insane so now she has single kitten syndrome too from what my mom's friend describes. I've also seen maine coons here some years back but one was going for 700 euros which is insane. But I'm pretty sure maine coons are a very temperamental breed despite being long haired, gorgeous cats tho.
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Mollycat
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

We saw Abyssinian kittens for sale £2,000 this week. Prices of animals have gone crazy. Labrador and spaniel puppies £4-5,000. I paid £100 for Boo which covered his neutering and STI tests, he was 8 years old. Other than that I have had 8 cats and never paid a penny for any of them. Even our dog was free as my partner found him left to die in a box 4 weeks old in the middle of winter. But I am old enough to remember cards in the newsagents window, kittens free to good homes. Times have changed so much so quickly.
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Ruth B
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Ruth B »

I still remember when a female cat adopted my parents and then brought us 4 kittens, those kittens were rehomed when they reached 6 weeks with the exception of one that we kept, now I cringe to think of rehoming a kitten at 6 weeks, but that was how things were back then and there is no point in worrying about what was, we can only took to now and to the future.
I paid £75 each for Saturn and Freyja when I adopted them, but they came ready neutered and spayed (they were 6 months old when I got them but the charity had a vet willing to neuter at 3 months so it was £75 for any cat or kitten but they all came ready spayed or neutered), they were also vaccinated, microchipped, and up to date with flea and worm treatment, basically they were as healthy as was possible, so I was happy to hand over the money, the amount the charity had spent to get them to that stage was far more than £75, even if they had arrived in a healthy condition to start with.
Maybe i was lucky with Blue, he lived to the fine age of 16, a slight hic cup with teeth and kidneys along the way, but nothing major, while it isn't anything i've gone into in depth, the flat face of the Persian has always concerned me more for health worries than anything the Ragdolls are prone to. When Tiggy finally decides to call it a day, once again she has decided her time isn't up yet, I will look at some pedigrees as I would love another Ragdoll, Birman or something like a Maincoone or Norwegian Forest, if I could get a rehomed one I would happily have it and will search for one before I commit to buying a kitten, but I have accepted I may have to pay out for one and know that £800-£1000 is the likely price if i do, partly because I want one that is registered, it may not be a guarantee but I have to hope the risk of being struck of the register would help ensure I don't end up at a back yard breeder who is just in it for the money and doesn't care about the cats welfare.
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Mollycat
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

I hold my hand up I have not had a kitten any older than 6 weeks so I have nothing to compare, but I don't see the problem with just-weaned kittens, as all 3 of mine were. It doesn't make much sense to me that puppies who are dogs who are social animals are taken from their mother and siblings earlier than cats that are solitary animals by nature in order to learn to be a cat by staying with their mother longer. A six or seven week old kitten is much less independent and switches its learning focus from momma straight onto whatever is available, of whatever species, that steps in to be momma - a responsible human with time, patience and understanding has the opportunity to raise a well bonded, teachable, well adapted kitten. I'm trying not to be rude but I don't remember cats having such behavioural problems as people seem to report these days. So as always I just wonder what's changed, and maybe it could be that staying with momma longer has some other consequences we don't really want in our cats.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

I think it all really depends on the kitten, back in the day they'd just attribute biting and stuff to a "bad kitten" but now we understand why it's happening and we understand kittens better and how they interact with each other and what benefits staying longer with their family has. Not a single one of my 4 persian kittens had biting issues, Mila was very hyper as a kitten but we adopted her at 4 months so other than her hyperactivity there was zero biting.
Anastasia before her, a persian did bite and the breeder sold her to us at I believe less than two months, but her biting was nowhere near Spaska level of biting, my mom's friend kitten or my mom's other firend's kitten who was also found abandoned at 2 weeks even.

I immediately taught Spaska not to use her claws, it only took about a week or so for her to fully grasp the concept of never using claws on people and she doesn't, she is wonderful about that.
I don't think she means any harm with her bite, she just can't regulate her bite's strength well because she hasn't had littermates long enough to learn this. Of course she improved a great deal but it's a much lower process.

Here's a clip of a Spaska vs Mila spat, Mila was peacefully sleeping in one of her favorite spots when Spaska attacked her out of nowhere. This I don't consider a big issue, just a normal spat, the big ones I haven't caught on camera and I hope they never occur again :) Tho Spaska did get a good beating earlier tonight when she wouldn't let Mila sleep in her carrier in peace.
This is just a continuation of that lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC5IxnOeWV4

it's a short clip just posting it for fun
Spaska attacked Kala right after but you can only hear it not see it because I didn't realize it was happening on time :)
it's good tho, this isn't the drama/bad type of harassment I've been talking about, that stuff is real bad and Mila screams when that happens

EDIT: I don't like even those spats tho, I separate them by making some kinda noise to distract them or something but after Spaska checks out the distraction she goes back to harassing Mila.
I've been told this is normal level of kitten harassment on an adult cat, so I don't panic plus I've seen the bad kind and it's not pretty and it does not end with Mila standing her ground.
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Ruth B
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Ruth B »

I have to say, having watched the clip a couple of times it does strike me as just normal cat interactions and them sorting out what is what. Spaska's ears were only laid back at one point that I noticed, most of the time they were forward which as far as I know, indicates she wasn't really considering it a real fight. Milla's were back a couple of times, but she never had that look of full on aggression and she did manage to give Spaska a good right hook, but it appeared to be an admonishment not really intending to harm her. Towards the end when she is sat on the boxes, her tail is going but not really lashing, far more like she is cursing 'stupid youngsters'. When I got my two juniors when they were both 6 months old, the male did tend to tease my old resident cat, and she would have to give him a good clout from time to time. It always reminded me of an old lady yelling at some teenage lads for running over her garden messing up her plants, she gets annoyed and waves her stick at them, they just run off laughing only to return later to do it again. Spaska and Milla strike me in much the same way.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

I've always felt this type tail movement is like cursing or muttering too :D
yeah this was a pretty normal interaction for them, we haven't had any of those major incidents where Spaska would start scratching Mila's head or anything in a long time, but cornering her in the carriers does make Mila very mad.
I still have to mind Spaska while Mila is in the litterbox tho because while she now just watches from afar, if Mila or any of the other cats digs for too long Spaska gets overwhelmed and jumps to join in which of course **** Mila off real bad.

I think things are improving a great deal, but man the difference between a persian cat and a regular one is staggering.
Getting Spaska to be less active after her spaying surgery is going to be an issue tho, this kitten does not sit still.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

Finally took a pic of Spaska pestering a cat in the litterbox

paska is 4 months old, soon to be 5 on the 1st and this behavior just won't go away :(
Snapped a photo but the moment I took the pic she turned her head because another cat was in another litterbox so she couldn't decide which cat to pester.
IMG_5144.JPG
The pic shows Kala taking a dump and Spaska being a nuisance
Mila still doesn't tolerate this but instead of hissing she walks off and holds it in which is a PROBLEM! I do have Mila scheduled for the most part but it doesn't always work out.

I dunno guys, everything else is fine except this
and it's not stopping

Everything else is mostly great, but this just won't stop and I don't see how it could, she gets so extatic when they start digging.
Earlier Mila was peeing in one of the boxes, Spaska flew up to her, but didn't interfere, when Mila was about to bury her pee, Spaska popped her head in and started sniffing and burying it too so Mila just walked off.

So she has learned to wait until they're done peeing...SOMETIMES
but sometimes they poop after peeing and need to prepare the litter before doing so, that's when Spaska butts in and Mila gives up and starts holding it in, Kala still doesn't care, Casper sometimes gives up sometimes doesn't care.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by fjm »

I think there is slow improvement - she is less pushy, is waiting till they have finished peeing, etc. Ay 17 weeks she is still very much a kitten and learning about the world, and the older cats are a huge part of her world - she is going to be fascinated when they do interesting things. I think it will get better over the coming months if you can schedule enough peaceful times for Mila in the meantime.

You have said how very different Spaska is in temperament from your laid back Persians - I wonder if she would benefit from some puzzle toys? There are lots available for sale, but you could easily adapt the ideas and make them yourself, or ask a friend with woodworking equipment to do so. Even very simple things - a few biscuits in an empty plastic bottle, a scrap of something she really likes hidden in a bag filled with scrunched up paper, etc, etc - might help to exercise her brain and wear her out. I would also consider clicker training her, both to come to you when called and to do some fun tricks. Now that she is heading for adolescence that little brain is going to be buzzing and needs occupation - there is an old saying that the Devil finds work for idle hands, but in my experience of pups and kittens it is idle brains that come up with the most devilish games!
https://www.clickertraining.com/node/1776
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

She is incredibly smart, that or I'm used to less than smart persians :)
She opens boxes and what not, like this morning she found a box of masks and carefully opened it, she opened it from the bottom but there were flaps there and she worked through them and opened one.

She often uses her front paws to get something as opposed to her mouth, for example if she wants to pull a food bowl or platter towards her she does it like a person with her arm/hand.
The other day she grabbed a piece of cheese straight from the top of a slice of bread with her front paw, a big piece too.

She definitely needs a lot more attention, playing and brain stimulation and I hope/think I provide her with it as much as possible. It's also amazing how she responds to her name 100% of the time like a puppy and comes running.
She also doesn't forget what she was doing prior to being distracted and always goes back to it afterwards

Very strange and fascinating cat
just wish Mila had an easier time with her

EDIT: oh and she LOVES water
she doesn't mind getting wet and playing with water, jumps straight into the sink of the water is running.

Here's a pic of her from the other day, Spaska is a gorgeous cat
even my vet says she is very unique
IMG_5131LR2.jpg
and here she is with Casper ready to destroy my PC Engine's wires
IMG_5108LR.jpg
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Ruth B
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Ruth B »

If she is so intelligent, have you considered clicker training her, you might be able to use the clicker and a treat to distract her from the litter tray. Clicker training is normally used for dogs, but a cat can be just as good at it as long as you have a incentive they actually want to have, some treat they would do anything to have. I would suggest having a look on Youtube for videos about clicker training cats and giving it a try.

As for Spaska's behaviour I can't say I'm surprised. When I was a child we had a Tuxie female who was far too clever for our good. My Father was a Dentist and part of the house was put ofver to a practice, one day, my Mother prepared a ham salad for him for his lunch and left it on a plate, covered with cling film and a towel over the top on the kitchen side. Whenhe finished his morning surgery she went to get it. The towel was still in place, but when she lifted it, there was a short slice in the cling film and the ham was gone. Fangs had managed to slide a paw under the towel, use a claw to slice through the plastic and extract the ham with out disturbing anything else, the perfect thief.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

That is an awesome story :)
not sure about the clicker training as it would distract the other cats, but she responds when called over, it's just she goes all crazy running back and forth, even if you give her a treat she gulps it down and storms back to the litterbox cat.
I've been able to hold her attention with toys at times but it's all pure luck and what she finds more interesting at a given time.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by fjm »

You can use a marker word or sound instead of the clicker - something short and easily said. The clicker is absolutely consistent which saves possible confusion, but Yes or a mouth click or anything similar will work as well. First you load the marker by repeating it while linking it with a reward (treat or quick game), then when the cat reliably looks to you for a reward when she hears the sound you start making that sound at the first tiny step towards the behaviour you want - that might be looking at you when you call her away from Mila, for example, building up to glancing at you before even attempting to approach Mila. The trick is to break each behaviour down into tiny steps, and reward at first approximations and then better and better versions of what you want. The link in my previous post to Karen Pryor's website explains it much better - I think you and Spaska could have a lot of fun!
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

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Sounds like something I've already started but it needs more work I guess.
I started calling her over and giving her a treat whenever she'd harass the cats in the litterbox, so she'd storm over to me, gulp the treat down and run back.
Then I started giving her little pieces to keep her occupied, but what that did was she'd be running back and forth between pieces further distracting the cats lol

Eventually I settled for calling her over and distracing her with a plastic bag or something which she goes wild for, this worked for a few weeks but then it didn't, so now I do it with a toy, plastic bag tied in a knot, string, something, anything that she is into.
You don't want to pick her up when she is crazy like this because she bites VERY HARD then, like she twists and turns and bites super hard.
When she is calm, if she bites and I say no she lets go
or if I say no and leave the room to show her she shouldn't do that
but when the cats start digging she goez utterly nuts and yeah lol

The clicker training sounds about right, it's like when Icall her over and stuff, but we'll see how long it keeps her distracted
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Ruth B »

It might be worth trying to do some of the training when the others aren't using the litter tray,so she doesnt' associated the two quite so much. It might also be possible to teach her to sit ( I know this may sound odd with a cat, but it can be done) and then wait a few seconds for her treat. People tend to think cats can't be trained, but as long as the incentive is good enough they can be, you just have to remember they don't have the instinct to please a human the way a dog does, you just have to find what they will do the tricks for.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

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Tilly taught herself to sit for treats - she watched the dogs for a while, decided anything they could do she could do better, and next time I called them for a treats-in-turn game sat down beside them to take her turn. I agree with Ruth - play clicker style games several times a day, so they don't become associated with the ramped up excitement of Tray Watching. Once you have the That's-what-I-like sound established you can use it to encourage gentle pawing and mouthing, as well as tricks and games - there are some wonderful videos online of cats doing agility courses! The one rule is that the Click equivalent is always rewarded - it is not the reward itself, but a very reliable indicator that a reward is coming. Very often by the time we actually give the treat or start the game it is after the thing we are trying to reward - the Click marks the exact moment, so the animal comes to understand exactly what it is that makes good stuff happen.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

I wonder if it's too late once she has already focused on a digging scraping noise and is on her way to investigate. Maybe you need to give her a much more interesting alternative before she gets interested, when you see that another cat is going towards a tray. It sounds like this is a very bright and lively energetic kitten who is going ot take a lot of entertaining to be happy as a purely indoor cat all her life.
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

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As soon as a cat enters the litter tray she has to go investigate, usually watches from afar unless the cat starts digging.
Right now she was harassing Mila as per usual, nothing bad I hope/think and in the middle of harassing Mila she somehow heard Casper enter the bathroom litter tray, that's like nowhere near my computer room, you can't even see it from here it's at the other end of the apartment...she heard poor Casper go in
literal seconds later she chases him out of the litterbox and runs after him, he didn't even start his business.
So in haste I threw a toy in my computer room and closed the door, Casper went back and pooped but even tho she was in the room with Kala and Mila who were minding their own business, all she could do was bang on the door as Casper was digging all the way in the bathroom. I'd slide papers/thin toys she'd normally play with under the door to distract her but nothing worked, she had to go out and police and harass whoever was using the litterbox.

I have no idea where we're going with this because at times it's so bad even Casper can't always take her nonsense

When she fixates on a cat in a litterbox nothing can distract her at times


Wish we had cat behaviorists here but we don't, we barely have competent behaviorists for humans.

I'm going to have to try that clicker stuff but I don't know if I'd be able to pull it off tbh
I'm not a very constant or routine prone person, but there's no other option for now
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Mollycat »

Don't get too despondent about not having animal behaviourists, an awful lot of them have no idea what they're talking about and i know many dog owners who have started with a small problem and ended up thousands of pounds down with much bigger problems. We saw a cat behaviourist once, the first time Sarah took up residence in the wardrobe, who came highly recommended by our reputable vet. First the receptionist told us to block Sarah's access to the wardrobe - never, never, never block a cat's access to the place it feels safe!!! Then the behaviourist herself knew less about cats than I do. Good observation, half a brain and a good measure of empathy should get you at least as good results as a so-called behaviourist, so sense and experience do beat qualifications sometimes. In my opinion you're not missing out on much.

What do you do to stop Spaska doing other things? If she kept trying to chew your computer wires for example, how would you go about stopping her doing something like that, that could potentially kill her? Perhaps thinking from that angle might bring you some new ideas.
Joe_Danger
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Re: Hi everyone, first time cat owner here

Post by Joe_Danger »

That definitely makes me feel better :) I think you told me the wardrobe story once before :) THANK YOU!

Fortunately other than headphone wires or controller wires that move she ignores all other wires that are just lying around, but the way I taught her to do so was to simply say no, distract her with an object she CAN chew on and I often move away from the spot she is misbehaving so she knows I'm not playing as long as she misbehaves.
When she does start chewing/pouncing on headphone wires, THE only solution is to get up, move out of the room so she understands I'm not playing, same when she is biting.

The level of fixation she has with a cat in a litterbox tho is incomparable to anything else. It started out abruptly on July 18th, before that she didn't care at all and it just never ended.
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