Operation night time lockdown is a failure

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oggers86
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Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

3 months in and things are still no better. Elise refuses to use a litter tray no matter where it is, how many there are or what litter it is. Instead of using the bath she has now started going around the house. They are confused about when the flap is locked or not locked so they keep stopping using it. This is increasing Elises weeing because she doesn't know that the flap is open. If we cover the flap then the cardboard gets torn off and the banging starts (2.30am today)

Do I just need to accept that they are not meant to be confined and go back to 24/7 access for the sake of everybodies sanity?

We are getting a Siamese soon who I don't want free roaming but I am worried he will be as unhappy as these two as I seem incapable of providing them with what they need hence the desperation to go outside! He will not be given the opportunity to roam which is where we went wrong in the first place. I would like to take him out on a harness but I did this with Elise when introducing them to the area and from then on she wanted out.

I am hoping that as none of his family have ever been allowed to roam it wont be inbuilt and Siamese are very much people cats unlike the Mogs who are both very independent.

I am not really happy with letting the Mogs have night time access as it was when they were allowed out over night that Elise got hurt but I have no idea what else to do.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by meriad »

I forget - is cat proofing your garden not an option?
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

meriad wrote:I forget - is cat proofing your garden not an option?
No I went through that and had an even worse reaction than I am having now. Wailing, pacing, frustration leading to fighting with each other, constant escape attempts etc. If it was then I would be so happy!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Hunnybunny »

Why on earth are you adding another cat into this already extremely stressful situation? It just seems madness to try and make new introductions until you have managed to sort out the problems!!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by catsue »

Hi, it can be very difficult sorting out this sort of problem. I don't know what the history of this is as I've only just caught up with this thread. Until you have managed to sort this out I would think twice about adding another cat to the equation as there is a very strong possibility that it will only make matters worse. Hope you can sort it out soon. :)
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

I don't think bringing in a cat will cause issues, the issue is them wanting to go out when they want. I would prefer them not to but I have come to realise that I can't control them.

If things don't go well with the new cat then he goes back to the breeder.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Hunnybunny »

Gosh, thats rather brutal!!!!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by JulieandBarney »

:cry:

Gosh, totally agree, that sounds so cold and calculationg....poor cat..........
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

JulieandBarney wrote::cry:

Gosh, totally agree, that sounds so cold and calculationg....poor cat..........
Of course its not. I am already very attached to him and I haven't even met him. However I do have to consider the possibility that things won't go well. There is always a risk when bringing in a new cat even if they are very placid and the existing cats come first.

I am truly hoping he will fit in with the girls and my breeder knows the situation and thinks we will be fine but I know that being a responsible breeder she will have him back in a heartbeat if for some reason things don't work out.

I am not as horrible as I sound :-)
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by JulieandBarney »

;) I'm sure you are not horrible Oggers, I think when we read the quote below, it just sounded a little clinical !

"If things don't go well with the new cat then he goes back to the breeder "


Best of luck, I truly hope all works out for you........
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

JulieandBarney wrote:;) I'm sure you are not horrible Oggers, I think when we read the quote below, it just sounded a little clinical !

"If things don't go well with the new cat then he goes back to the breeder "


Best of luck, I truly hope all works out for you........


Thanks! I hope at worst they tolerate each other, at best they are friends :-)
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Hunnybunny »

Sorry Oggers but I think you are being very unfair on your existing cats who are obviously already struggling to cope with their home situation!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

Hunnybunny wrote:Sorry Oggers but I think you are being very unfair on your existing cats who are obviously already struggling to cope with their home situation!!!!!!!!!!
No that is fine, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. The cats are struggling with being kept in at night (or rather Elise is) and this hasnt changed. They hated being in a cat proof garden so I gave in and let them out.

We are now giving Elise full outside access which I know will make her happier. Despite my very best attempts she is very much a free spirit and as much as I would love it if she became less so that just isn't her personality. Elsa is ok with being kept in at night providing we dont give her access to the flap.

They used to have full 24/7 access until Elise had her accident then I attempted the cat proofing. When that didn't work then I started keeping them in at night once winter hit but again it has proved to not work for Elise.

It is my own fault for giving them full access in the first place. I can't really expect to give them something they clearly enjoy and then take it away from them.

Elise clearly doesn't want to toilet inside, she will always choose to go outside no matter what the weather. Restricting that is obviously why she is choosing to wee in the house because she feels like she has no other choice.

Bringing in a kitten was not an overnight decision, I have spoken to many breeders and have told them everything about my situation and none of them have raised concerns. Obviously like the rest of us they are aware that things may not go to plan but we think with the right introductions then things should be fine.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by meriad »

oggers86 wrote:Of course its not. I am already very attached to him and I haven't even met him.
Given that you haven't met him, and you're getting him from a breeder who no doubt will have other litters later on, would it not make sense to put getting cat nr 3 on hold for a bit until you sort out the situation with your two? You do run the risk of having three very unhappy cats, wheras having harmony with your two first will make an intro so much easier and hugely increase the chance of a integration

As to a solution with Elise maybe you do need to give in and leave her to do what some cats enjoy most; being out and about; my Monty and Abbie are like that.

I tried to find the original posts on the old forum; but there are so many to look through - I can't remember; have you recently moved or are you still in the same place that you catproofed; the one with the pergola?

If still in the same place; do you still have the catproofing in place, and if yes is there any chance you could do what I've been lucky enough to do - ie a set up that has a microchip catflap to go out the garden so only 3 of my 6 can get out. It's difficult to explain but I've got two brick sheds / storerooms that belong to my house so what I did was knock the wall between the two away so that enabled me to put a flap one way so they could get out and another flap into the other door so only mine can get in. that way Elise would have the freedom she so obviously needs whereas Elsa probably will be quite happy with home and garden space only - and then with the garden catproofed, newby cat would be allowed outside as well and would be safe; and not know any better.

But please do reconsider getting your kitten until you have sorted out your current problem.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

meriad wrote:
oggers86 wrote:Of course its not. I am already very attached to him and I haven't even met him.
Given that you haven't met him, and you're getting him from a breeder who no doubt will have other litters later on, would it not make sense to put getting cat nr 3 on hold for a bit until you sort out the situation with your two? You do run the risk of having three very unhappy cats, wheras having harmony with your two first will make an intro so much easier and hugely increase the chance of a integration

As to a solution with Elise maybe you do need to give in and leave her to do what some cats enjoy most; being out and about; my Monty and Abbie are like that.

I tried to find the original posts on the old forum; but there are so many to look through - I can't remember; have you recently moved or are you still in the same place that you catproofed; the one with the pergola?

If still in the same place; do you still have the catproofing in place, and if yes is there any chance you could do what I've been lucky enough to do - ie a set up that has a microchip catflap to go out the garden so only 3 of my 6 can get out. It's difficult to explain but I've got two brick sheds / storerooms that belong to my house so what I did was knock the wall between the two away so that enabled me to put a flap one way so they could get out and another flap into the other door so only mine can get in. that way Elise would have the freedom she so obviously needs whereas Elsa probably will be quite happy with home and garden space only - and then with the garden catproofed, newby cat would be allowed outside as well and would be safe; and not know any better.

But please do reconsider getting your kitten until you have sorted out your current problem.
If I thought the problem stemmed from anything but Elise preferring to toilet outside then I would agree to put the kitten back but I am 99% certain giving her 24/7 access will fix it. When she doesn't come back until late she doesn't wee in the house because she doesn't need to go. No wees in the day time because she can use the flap to go outside. It is random and not all the time so I can only assume that she doesn't wee when she doesn't need to go. When we spot her looking for a place to go we open the door and she immediately goes out for a wee and some times comes straight back.

I would love to cat proof so that Elise could get out but the others couldn't. We haven't moved yet (house fell through) but when we do I considered getting some stuff from Protectapuss. My concerns are that Elise will damage it getting over it or back in the garden making it unusable for the others. After experiencing Elise climb upside down on the flimsiest of netting in her desperation to get out I am also wary of a new cat being able to escape.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Camdengirl »

Before I start, I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't think you're 'horrible', but I do think you're being very naive and rather selfish.

1. Breeders have a vested interest in selling cats, and while I'm sure there are some that genuinely do put the cats first, I suspect many don't. They are not the people to ask for advice about whether you should take on a new cat, a cat behaviourist is the person to do that.

2. A cat is not a possession, like a set of bedlinen or a dress, it's an animal that will be affected by its life experiences. It's not fair to just 'send it back' if it doesn't 'fit'. By the same token, you owe it to your girls to resolve their behavioural problems before making their lives more stressful by bringing in another cat. We are responsible for our pets, and those that we already have should come before those that we do not.

Bottom line: the welfare of the cats, not what you want, should come first.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

1. Of course breeders have a vested interest but they will also refuse to sell to someone who isn't right for their cat. A few of them do not even have kittens to sell yet are taking the time out to advise me.

2. We have one problem and we are pretty certain we know what is causing it and how to fix it. I know your cats are indoor only and are content with that but Elise isn't. She will meow to go out but if it is early or late then we don't let her as we are trying to be consistent with the not letting her out thing. That is when she finds somewhere else to wee because for some reason she won't use the litter tray regardless if it is clean, dirty, clay litter, wood litter, covered vs uncovered tray.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Camdengirl »

1. I think you are being naive thinking that this applies to all breeders. Although I'm not sure whether you actually believe it or are just telling yourself that.

2. It doesn't matter whether you think you know what the problem is, what is needed is for you to resolve it. And that doesn't change the fact that a new kitten is not a possession and shouldn't be treated with the same insouciance as an inanimate object.

I'm going to bow out now, because I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear, and that seems to be all this thread is about.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

I completely appreciate your input and did actually ask my husband (who would not be going through with it if he thought it was a bad idea) and he is also of the opinion that Elise is weeing because she wants out.

Some breeders are just in it for the money but there are some who are genuinely invested in their kittens. I have been asked tons of questions about my cats and my family. Those who don't seem to be interested in me then I dont want to know because I want them to care about their cats so much that they will choose the best home.

I don't understand how having a plan b in case things don't work is such a bad thing. There are no guarantees and every breeder asks for a kitten to be returned for them should any problems arise. I obviously don't expect them to be immediate friends but if after 6 months to a year things are not going well then I will obviously have to make that decision. My breeder is lovely and I know she will be on hand to give me her advice. That is what I expect from a good breeder. I would expect a rubbish breeder to just churn out kittens and not give a toss where they go or what happens after. I think it is very unfair to reputable breeders that they get tarred with the same brush. Many of them don't actually make any or much money from it, especially if they only have one kitten which does happen.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Camdengirl »

I am not saying do not get another cat ever, or that there are never circumstances in which rehoming a cat is the best option for the animals involved. But I don't understand why you seem so set on getting a kitten post haste, rather than taking a bit more time to try to resolve Elise's behavioural issues first, and I don't agree with bringing a new cat into an unresolved 'problem' situation with the view that if it doesn't work, it can go back. That should be the absolute last resort, not the knee-jerk response to 'if things don't go well'. Things are already not going well.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Janey »

Hi, I've not read all the thread and don't know much about the background of this, but it sounds like you've posted before? anyway reading your first post I was wondering whether you've tried adding some soil to the litter tray to encourage your cat use it? that sometimes can help if the cat is used to going outside. You may already have tried that but worth a go if not!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

Camdengirl wrote:I am not saying do not get another cat ever, or that there are never circumstances in which rehoming a cat is the best option for the animals involved. But I don't understand why you seem so set on getting a kitten post haste, rather than taking a bit more time to try to resolve Elise's behavioural issues first, and I don't agree with bringing a new cat into an unresolved 'problem' situation with the view that if it doesn't work, it can go back. That should be the absolute last resort, not the knee-jerk response to 'if things don't go well'. Things are already not going well.
It is because this problem will continue tomorrow, next month, in two years and not getting a cat will not make her use the tray if she wants to go outside. Tonight she chose to go out in the pouring rain rather than use the litter trays so if she is that set against using them then I can understand why she resorts to going inside if we are not letting her out like she asks.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your opinion. If I honestly thought bringing in another cat would make the problem worse I would not be getting one and my husband most definitely wouldn't and no matter what I said it wouldn't change his mind. He is much less emotional than me so can see things from a more realistic point of view which in cases like this mean I am not doing something purely based on my emotions
:-)
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by JulieandBarney »

:cry: Hi Oggers...though I don't believe at all that you are a 'horrible ' person, I do tend to agree with Camden girl....this is an animal, not an article of clothing to return when it doesn't fit.....please...please...sort the issue out at home with the others first, without adding any more problems to the mix "in the hope they may get on ".....then if they don't "I will return the cat to the breeder ...".....( I hate people who breed animals for money btw) ......plus it would no doubt bring stress to you too.......
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by JulieandBarney »

Sorry....pressed send when shouldn't have...!!!...It doesn't help with anyone on here when you refer to returning this poor cat as Just "Plan B".......Plan B is a living animal....I don't mean to sound horrid, as I am sure none of us do, but your wording does come across as though this is a possession, not a pet.....Maybe Plan B would like a loving home.........I hope you find it in your heart to do what is best...... :cry:
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by oggers86 »

Once again a kitten is not a possession. My cats are very well loved and very well taken care of despite being allowed outside! Elise has now been allowed out whenever she chooses which seems to be making her happy. Elsa is staying in at night and again she seems happy.

I know many of you don't approve of breeders which is fair enough. I have taken my time to approach several breeders and explain all about the cats, myself and our future plans.

Just because I prepare for the worst does not mean I am treating a kitten as a possession. I got married but dont take it for granted that we will be together forever. Nobody knows what life will bring.

All breeders have stated that if things don't work out then they will have their kittens back no matter what the problemis. They would never sell to anyone who wasn't suitable. I was in fact told by one breeder that I am not at the top of their list due to plans to have a baby in the next few years. They have their rules just like rescues.

Any cat who comes home will be given an extremely good loving home. My husband and I are grown adults and can discuss the problems and how to fix them. We discussed Elise and decided the best course of action was to give her choice. My cats have different personalies so it is important that I understand that what will work for one won't work for another.

I will update you in a couple of months and let you know how things are going.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Camdengirl »

For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting cats outside, I certainly wouldn't assume a cat was any less loved because it was allowed out. The cat I had growing up loved the outdoors, and I think on the whole it's good for cats to be able to spend some time outside. My furries were specifically homed as indoor cats for their own safety, Hops for example is missing a front leg and his three remaining paws are mangled, so his balance and movement are quite impaired.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Willowgill »

Hi
I've read this thread with interest as I have had cats for over 30 years and been through all the traumas of trying to keep them in when they obviously don't want to be confined. We got our first cat shortly after moving to a new area and our dog had been run over and killed on a main road behind the house. I was so terrified Tigga would get over the fence I used to fasten her collar to a length of string and then to the washing line so she could go in the garden when we were out there. Looking back now I know how cruel that was and of course the inevitable would happen and she'd escape through the door when someone came in and we'd spend ages hunting round the fields for her. She lived to be 18 btw and we had her daughter who reached 23 and her grandson who was 17 when he died. Once we moved to this house 28 years ago there was a cat flap with a wooden board and a bolt on it - all 3 of the above had to be in at bedtime, the flap was locked and they were shut in the kitchen and all used the litter tray - just one tray back then (I now have 6!!). How things changed when Harry joined us - he was a stray kitten who wandered home with the dog and my husband one bitterly cold night and stole my heart and our house. He hated being shut in and could get that flap open no matter what we did to stop him. We had major renovation work done and new doors so had to have a new flap which was even easier for him to get open. Even in the last two years of his life when he started sleeping with me upstairs it would be the devils own job to get him to come in for bed - he always did - eventually. By that time we also had Max who is the one now blind but still insists on going out to toilet but also uses every tray he comes across just because he can and then Alfie came as another little stray who obviously was used to being outside. He rarely uses the tray at home although he has no choice when we take them away as it's a 2nd floor apartment and they can't go out. Daphne on the other hand NEVER goes outside to toilet - she wanders around the garden a bit but wouldn't sully her paws in soil and will usually use the trays but sometimes for no apparent reason decides the carpet is more inviting (hence the ever increasing number of trays). Sorry for the long post but what I'm trying to say is if they want to be outside and are used to going out there is very little you can do to stop them. Would it not be better to get the cat flap and magnetic collar so that you can let one out and keep the other one inside? I'm also worried about how you will keep the new kitten in if the others have access to a flap? We have a cat flap in the shed as well for Alfie to go and sleep in as he's scared of Daph and needs an escape sometimes!
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Hazel »

Hello, I know what you are saying about returning the kitten if things don't work out and it does sound like you have found a good breeder. In reality though this wont happen - you are already attached and you haven't met the kitten yet, do you really think you could give it back?
When we had just Max (a rescued Siamese) we didn't want another cat until he passed on but a feral kitten appeared in the garden in winter hunting for bird food and going through bin bags, so we didn't really have a choice. We then bought a Siamese kitten of a similar age to play with him and help socialise him as he was annoying poor old Max, who wasn't really well, by trying to play all the time. This is possibly the worst thing we could have done in all honesty! It didn't go to plan, the new kitten wanted nothing to do with anyone but Max (who hated him, even though he tolerated the feral really well) and the feral kitten became more isolated. Did we return him to the breeder? No of course we didn't. Max died, the two kittens are now friends but the ex-feral spends most his time sitting outside in the cat run and won't come near us unless the other one is not about.

So, I do have to agree with the other posters, if it was me I would not get a new kitten, you just can't predict how your others will react. What if neither of them like him and choose to stay outside all of the time? Then you will have one lonely kitten in the house - what's the plan then.... get another one? Honestly I wish we had not done it. Isn't two cats enough?

As for keeping them in at night. We have to lure ours into the house with da bird then close the cat flap and the kitchen door so they can't just bang on the flap. This only works because they are not that bothered and they like to be by the radiators when it gets cold. I think if she wants out you'll have to let her, unless you can make staying in more attractive (which a new kitten is unlikely to achieve).
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Simons Cats »

Why is there a problem with the cats coming and going as they please. My cats don't go out at night but they've never known any different. Why is it a problem if that's what your cats want?

I wouldn't get another cat whilst you have these extra issues going on. It's just not right. Believe me I've had to rehome a cat and it's not great, I volunteered for my local rescue and took in a very very nervous cat. Despite the fact she went from hating human's to adoring them, she couldn't settle with my special needs cat and toileted constantly. We tried for months but in the end the rescue I volunteer from said that it would be best if she came back as they had a home they knew would suit her. It broke my heart and is a regret, I tried to fool myself we fostered her to help her adjust to human's but I feel we failed and she must have been bewildered, at losing her home as she'd already had a rubbish life. Don't do that to another cat.
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Re: Operation night time lockdown is a failure

Post by Hazel »

I think one of the ladies cats was run over at night. Cats are safer kept in at night, but unfortunatlely it sounds like Elise won't listen to reason ;-)
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