Milla had her kittens

[Lilith]

Ah. You've reached the point that we all can get to: WHEN are those kittens going to be weaned???

Worry not. They'll get there. They don't stop nursing at 9 weeks - in fact one of my girls, with further litters, had her adult children rushing to feed, and what's more, she let them! I had to shut them out of the room or she would have given those newborns nothing!

What usually happens is that eventually the mother gets a bit sick of the kittens feeding and kicks them off her stomach - this starts to happen around 3-4 months though or even later when the mother, by now pretty skinny (no matter how much she eats) and a tad irritable, tells them to go to their food dish and get on with it.

I don't think you'll have messed Kala up by trying to get her to eat - but, anything milky, they're unlikely to be attracted. They're already getting all the milk they want from Milla. In your place I'd be tempted to try them with a small dish of minced raw beef, or even a raw (raw bones won't hurt them if they gnaw, whereas cooked can splinter) chicken wing or part of a chicken wing. This last may be treated as a plaything and carried round with a lot of mewing and play-fighting, but once teeth are sunk in and they get a taste...some raw chicken mince is good too (do pet stores do the frozen chicken mince we can buy in the UK? If not will you be able to get it raw from supermarkets? You'll only need a tiny amount of course but it can kick-start their instinct and of course, as with beef, you can then mix it with a mash of meaty catfood for a while, both at room temperature, just to get them going.)

If you're keeping Kala, there's no hurry - but I do, really, know the feeling. You think they'll NEVER be weaned - but believe me, they cotton on sooner or later. And, of course, if you're parting with Casper, it's a great excuse to keep him for a while longer lol

[Joe_Danger]

Finally got Casper to try boiled chicken and he ended up eating a whole bowl of it XD
He was grooming himself, because he is extremely clean and I dropped some on his tail, this usually causes him to pick it up and throw it away but this time he ate it I suppose by accident and after getting a taste of it I put Milla's bowl next to him and he ate it all up.

Kala on the other hand just picked hers up, set it aside and kept grooming herself lol
I tried this several times over the past few days with her and she very carefully picks it up with her mouth or paws and sets it aside and keeps grooming herself.

I suppose given how smart and active she is, she is going to get there on her own time.

[Joe_Danger]

good news everyone!
I got Kala to eat chicken and now she adores it, I put chicken on her fur but mangled it a bit so she can't just pick it up and set it aside like she normally did, so while trying to check it out of her fur she grew to love it so much she went for the bowl on her own for the first time, started eating it from my hand and all

feels good

The trick was to get her to chew on it a bit and it worked!
Having a hard time taking it out of her fur made her have a good taste of chicken and she fell in love with it too

now all 4 eat

and I want to keep all 4 lol

[bobbys girl]

and I want to keep all 4 lol

Now There's a surprise!

Great news Joe.

[OHWS]

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[Joe_Danger]

Thanks It's a real shame I can't keep them all, if we could we would but you guys know how things are, it's best for the kittens to find new homes, one will stay but deciding who is the toughest thing ever. It's not about beauty or who the cutest is since they all are, to me it's about who I can provide the best home to.

Speaking of sharing I just realized I forgot to share a whole bunch of photos
http://imgur.com/a/5jzVn

[OHWS]

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[Lilith]

Congrats Joe - it's amazing how they suddenly learn at that age - ohh dear though, the decision of who to keep...good luck!

[bobbys girl]

What gorgeous photo's! I especially like puss in boot.

How on earth do you choose one?

[Mayday21]

The photo with Milla checking on her little one is gorgeous. I'd keep them all!!! But don't know how feasible that is for you. Vivian

[Joe_Danger]

Unfortunately we don't have the room for all of them, or rather we don't have the room for litterboxs and Casper for example already shows signs of wanting to go only in the clean litterbox and not wanting to share, after another kitten or his mom did their business he smells it and won't go on, goes for the other litter box where it's 100% clean. It's best they find new homes, except one of course.

Speaking of finding new homes my vet INSISTS they take Casper on Friday, no amount of explanation on my end changes her mind, everything I say regarding cats falls on deaf years, she promised the kitten to some family, the family wants the kitten, she has her convinctions that kittens older than two months can not be adopted out here due to people not wanting them and that's that.
That does seem to be true though, even that one professional breeder would home the kittens at around 2 months and every time she'd have some older ones nobody would take then and they'd end up with her forever in some cases

So, Casper might have to go on Friday, my vet insists too much and short of arguing with her there's nothing we can do, she has no respect for knowledge that's not hers and this is the case with ALL doctors and vets here, she is one of the nicest people I've met and she still does this.

Fortunatley Casper eats on his own now, is the longest/biggest, is active and knows his name, he uses the litter box perfectly and hasn't had a single accident in his life, he is just picky about his litter box because he is super clean kitten in general.

My vet won't even let me have them reach 9 weeks and insists they're homed NOW or it will be too late, granted she speaks from experience but what can ya do.
Medo and Marco are also fully independent now, Marco caught up and then some like you guys said he would

I dunno what to do, best I can do is talk to the people interested in them and explain the situation to them first hand, other than that nothing much I can do. My vet is pissing me off

[Lilith]

Joe I'm not surprised you're furious!

I would be too - and you've never even met the people Casper's going to?

Eight weeks, he'll be ok as long as they look after him properly, and he's received top care from you to stand him in good stead but yes, he should be having another few weeks with you and Milla and the gang...

I'm assuming the vet feels she has rights to him as it was her boy who fathered him?

I don't know why there is this silly notion (and often in the UK too) that the younger the kitten or puppy the better...there even used to be this stupid toy called a 'pound puppy/kitten' labelled 'newborn' - as if that was desirable and 'cute'.

Grrrr! I'm so sorry - you must be distraught - I would be.

Btw I will try to take another look at your pics - it wouldn't let me last time, but if this is the last time I'll see Casper I'll try again...again so very sorry - hope you manage to keep the others for longer.

[Joe_Danger]

thanks
I'm upset because every time I try to do something right about my cats, or pets in general my efforts are in vain. Vets always disagree with everything, people I know are the same except for my family...and one of my exes she shared the same notion regarding pets I do lol
But that's that.

But unfortunately what my vet says is true, I called a bunch of vets and every single one of them agreed that I will have a hard time finding homes for the kittens unless I start now, one of the vets I talked to just now is more up to date on everything cats, but as I mentioned before he is very far and I need vets within walking distance so I can't cut off all contact with them, and he completely agrees that it is indeed best for the cat and kittens to stay together until the kittens are 3 months old but he also says that simply won't fly here and I will have a hard time getting the kittens adopted.
He assured me they'll be just fine as pretty much all kittens are being adopted out at a young age here and they turn out fine.

What can I do, I'm fighting a losing battle and always have.

Funny how I can convince clients that our graphics design solutions are what they're looking for but I can't convince vets that things need to be done differently

[Lilith]

Just such a shame you have to lose him so soon, to say nothing of the others. But he's a nice big strong lad. I'd write him out a diet sheet though, so he gets the same food as at home, and try to persuade them not to give him cows' milk till he's older; if they think it's kind to put him a saucer of milk down, it could make him runny at his age.

Oh, managed to see the pics (my pc's temperamental.) LOVED the one of Marco chilling in the trainer and I take it the grey and white beauty is Anastasia and the big white chap is the kittens' father?

Hope you have the pleasure of the company of the other kitties for a while longer

[Joe_Danger]

I did not need this
Yesterday Milla's stomach got upset again, she had nothing but mush, to be honest I saw this coming since and I can't stress this enough we do NOT give them cow's milk, but Milla without us knowing jumped up to where a bowl of milk was for cooking on Saturday or Sunday and drank a good chunk of it. It didn't manifest itself immediately other than a bit of a softer but fully formed stool until yesterday, Wednesday, so we gave her some meds and today it's still mush but she only went to the bathroom twice so it's better mush than what it was yesterday.

What really got me worried though last night was Kala, she has no access to milk and she only recently started eating solid food, so far she only likes boiled chicken and wet Whiskas Jr. with chicken, I understand Whiskas isn't the best brand but Milla grew up on it too and so do most cats here, plus she didn't like Royal Canin Jr. much like her mom

I noticed last night I noticed Kala's poop was fine but had that splodge of mush at the end, it got me thinking but I figured I'd wait and see, now Kala went to the bathroom for the first time today after having eaten with her brothers all of whom had solid, fine poop and hers was formless mush, not watery but definitely smellier and not fully formed.

I'm worried especially because as you guys know vets absolutely refuse to do any kind of lab work or blood work whatsoever, I can't believe I'm arguing with vets over this stuff but I'm not the only one.

I hope it's nothing but for such a young kitten to have formless poop with no exposure to milk it is worrying. I wanted my vet to do lab work on Milla's poop back then she refused, she said she didn't have the equipment and sending the sample where it needed to be sent for testing would take over 4 days and what not.
So, I'm kind of on my own with this as usual

I'd love it for Kala to eat dry food, but she refuses to, unlike Medo and Marco who like it just fine
I'm not getting dry Whiskas Jr. tho since that has milk in it apparently, but I will try Royal Canin Jr again tho nobody likes that, there's also some Gusto food not sure if they have Junior variant of it but Milla hated that

Also is it bad if the kittens eat a non Jr. variant of a food? Everyone loves Royal Canin for adults, that's Milla's main dry food...well everyone except Kala, can't get her to eat dry yet but we'll get there.

[Joe_Danger]

When I suggest the vets do lab work on stool samples they do everything in their power to avoid this, same with bloodwork
If I start talking about potential parasites they shut me down with "don't worry, it's not that!" but I have yet to see a vet back what they're saying up with scientific proof, they all just speak from experience.
It could be nothing, but it could be easily treatable parasites too, all I want is some lab work done on my cats stool, I'll ask my vet for Kala and Milla again tomorrow but I know the answer

[Lilith]

Ah, naughty Milla!

I know it's easy for me to say, but - it's obvious why Milla's got diarrohea, and once the milk's effects are out of her system she'll get back to normal. I'm also wondering, could her own milk, after the cows' milk, have had some effect on Kala (anyone out there, do you know if this can happen?)

A couple of runny stools are nothing to worry about, honestly. Try to keep them both on the boiled chicken, and if Milla's been an indoor cat she's unlikely to be carrying worms. You'd have known before now. If a kitten is listless and passing horrible yellow squirty stuff all the time, then that is cause for worry as dehydration can cause death (I've seen this in a rescue who did have worms), but if Kala's carrying on as usual and just passing the odd soft motion now and again, try to reserve judgment; tomorrow she could be back to normal and please try not to worry - again easier said than done; it's a horrible feeling I know, if they do anything out of the ordinary it's so easy to fear the worst. Their digestions are still very young - a bit of over-eating can cause a funny stool - wait till teething time and that can cause messy stools and dirtiness and all sorts. But I do wonder if it's down to Milla stealing the milk.

Again, please try not to worry - I realise being powerless re the vet makes it worse but fingers crossed these stomach upsets clear by themselves - all the very very best.

[OHWS]

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[Joe_Danger]

thanks
you guys are awesome

I'm only worried because I've never had any kind of bloodwork or lab work done on my cats so I don't know what's going on inside them, ya know...I mean read my other topic about my friend the only vet in my area with x-ray equipment keeps refusing to do x-rays on his cat's leg and all other vets he takes the cat too say they need to see x-rays lol
My anxiety wouldn't be so bad if I didn't experience bad stuff in the past, I'm generally a chill guy except when it comes to this stuff, sorry if I'm being annoying...I keep it contained in one topic

I trust you guys completely so I'm sure it will be fine

Oh and don't worry XD vet care is very cheap and affordable, I WISH they'd ask for all sorts of check ups on vets for once so I know what is going on inside my vets and go from there.

I mean come on guys, had I not argued and insisted that dumb vet my friend is dealing with now does bloodwork on Anastasia in 2012 she would have died right then and there.
My current vet is very sweet and nice though, she just doesn't have all the equipment at her office/mini clinic thing so she has to outsource stuff all the time.

[OHWS]

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[booktigger]

I wouldn't worry about testing after a couple of loose poos, very common on kittens, but I would worm them - all kittens are born with them regardless of whether mum is indoor or not

[Joe_Danger]

It appears Medo found a home, they're going to pick him up on the 15th
I asked the girl who called to do research and some reading on persian cats and make sure everyone in the house agrees for a new family member to join them. The girl sounded very serious and promised she'd do as I asked, I have this entire list of dos and don'ts on my ads I expect people to follow through if they want a kitten from me.

Today she called and she really did her homework and talked it over with her parents and they decided they're completely ready for a kitten, so I agreed to let them have Medo.
Now, in the past few days since I put the ad up I turned down a ton of people, people keep calling some even offered more than what I'm selling the kittens for but this isn't about the money, that alone is a red flag to me. I talk to them and those who seem like the type of people I feel are good for my kittens can have them. I'm a pretty good judge of character and rarely make mistakes in real life so I'm confident I'll give the kittens to good homes.

On the health side of things, Kala's stool firmed up but Milla is a mess, she was almost completely fine yesterday, had fully formed but softer poop and today she is back to explosive and loud diarrhea, we're talking explosive and loud never heard something like this coming from a cat before. But she doesn't appear bothered by it in the least, she runs around, plays with the kittens, teaches them to fight, to pounce and all and her appetite is as good as ever.
The vet suggested that for the time being we don't give her boiled chicken breast either and leave her on dry food and water alone so we'll try that, she prescribed a bunch of pills so here's hoping something works, the pills she was taking a couple months back while pregnant that sorted her out real quick don't work this time.

Overall, diarrhea or not Milla is doing great, doesn't show signs of illness or distress and the kittens are always running around and playing and getting into my stuff which is awesome

[Lilith]

That's good, that Medo's staying for a while longer. I take it you've had to part with Casper?

Also good that Kala's motions are ok - Milla's will come right I'm sure; I'm certain they're caused by drinking that milk.

So, it's between Kala and Marco as to who stays? This is the heartbreaking part of breeding I'm afraid, it's awful to let them go - despite the new owners being so thrilled with them. All the best.

[Joe_Danger]

Casper is still here and growing more and more attached to us each day
He is going to go sometime next week, probably around Tuesday

Choosing between Marco and Kala is impossible, we looked at our options several times but it really isn't feasible for us to keep more than two cats for now and provide them with the care we normally provide our pets.
If my grandparents could take a kitten in they would have taken two and we wouldn't have had to part with anyone, but they thought about it real good, have been thinking since the kittens were born and they just can't do it because they're too old, my grandma is already sad casper and medo have to go. My entire family is like me That's why I was raised to love and care for pets so much.

There was a guy interested in Kala, we turned him down, I asked my mom if I should call him up today and see if he still wants her, my mom was like "sure...no don't, I can't part with my lil Kala" same with Marco. She has a very very hard time having to part with them dare I say even more so than I do.

On the other hand I was contacted by a professional breeder who was impressed with what I wrote in my ad, we talked a lot and she asked me if I was interested in becoming a professional persian breeder myself, she said she is beyond impressed with my understanding of cats, my attitude and approach to the whole thing and that Macedonia needs more people like me. She offered to offer full support in case I am interested in diving into professional breeding.
I'd love to in all honesty, she explained that it's not about the money either since the majority of the cash I'd be earning would go towards the cats and kittens, which is fine by me, I only spend money on video games and my pets anyways but I really don't think I have what it takes to deal with potential problems like pregnancy problems, birth problems, losing kittens and such so I told her that for now I'd rather not get into it because I'm not emotionally ready.

She estimated Medo at about 500 euros worth and thought my price of 100 euros per kitten was too low, but I explain I want even the average person here to be able to afford the kittens and provide them a good home, I don't want to put a money barrier between potential owners and the kittens, just because somebody isn't reach doesn't mean they aren't able to provide a better home for a kitten compared to those with more money and she said my reasoning was noble.

I don't think I'm cut out for being a professional breeder emotionally, I can provide the care and love, I work on my illustrations from home so I'm here most of the time except when out with friends or at a meeting for work or at college, I'm at my cat's back and call 24/7, but emotionally I don't think I could handle the bad that comes with breeding.

[Joe_Danger]

This is getting creepy and annoying

The other day some lady called me saying she calls from Albania and is interested in the kittens, she spoke English, I politely turned her down saying I don't feel comfortable giving my kittens away to another country. In the utmost rude and obnoxious manner she started insisting on my address saying her cousin who supposedly works in Macedonia wants the kitten for himself, I told her I would rather talk to this cousin then, but still feel uncomfortable with the whole situation. She kept repeating the same damn question if I could give her my address and if the kittens are still all here.
She bounces between her cousin working in Macedonia, studying in Macedonia and living here or visiting Macedonia often. Clearly the woman was lying, why I don't know.
The woman talked to her cousin telling him what I was saying and she spoke in English with him too, so clearly this cousin didn't speak Albanian or Macedonian, his voice sounded muffled so he was probably on Skype and made her call me.

So naturally I turned her down and said the whole situation makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm sure they'll find kittens elsewhere.

Fast forward to tonight, some guy calls me about the kittens, his Macedonian is broken but whatever, he sounds confused and insists I give him my address so he can come pick up Marco.
I told him that a family is considering adopting either Marco or Kala right now and I can't sell him Marco but if they don't buy Marco or Kala since I'm keeping one, I might though I said that out of sheer politness I absolutely HATED the guy's voice, the fact that he didn't introduce himself and seemed uninterested in the kitten. So I proceeded to ask him some questions, I asked for his name and he gives me a name which seemed off to me, he paused shortly before giving me his name, I pretend I don't notice and keep making normal polite conversation with him despite being pretty irritated at this point. He shows no interest in the kitten and slips up saying "<insert name here> wants he kitten" so I flat out ask who the person he introduced himself as actually is.

Turns out the guy introduced himself with his cousin's name, so I asked if it was the same person whose cousin from Albania called me the other day and I turned down, seems it is.
So now this guy tells me how the cousin who wants the kitten works and studies here, but is actually from Turkey and doesn't speak Macedonian.

I openly told him I feel very uncomfortable giving my kitten to a student like that and only want my kittens adopted in stable FAMILY households. I said that I don't know what is going to happen to the kitten once this guy finishes his studies here and that I don't feel comfortable with Marco traveling abroad so no, they can't have him.
But the guy kept insisting frustrating the hell out of me...but since they also creeped me the **** out I decided to be polite and told him that if nobody adopts Marco in two weeks I might consider it (I won't)
I wanted to send him a text saying Marco is adopted now but everyone says I should just just off all contact with these people.

The way they insist on my address, the way they LIE about themselves and this mysterious cousin who wants the kitten yet won't call himself and the fact that it's a person who clearly only temporely lives here creeps me out, they can't have Marco period.

What worries me, seeing the kind of people they are, they might trick me into selling Marco to a family I could supposedly trust so they can then give Marco to this guy next.
Believe me guys, I deal with shady people a lot with my retro game thing and I would not put such a thing past them, these are exactly the type of people I deal with on a daily basis with my retro game hobby.

[MarySkater]

This is probably because you are advertising your kittens at well below the market value. Someone wants to get a kitten at your price so that they can sell it on at a vast profit. If you can recognise the style of these callers as soon as you answer the phone, probably the best thing to do in future is say that the kittens are all sold.

[Joe_Danger]

Good point
I'm not sure if they're that below market value though, the breeder I talked to said they are but on the other hand I've seen persian kittens from non breeders like me sold that roughly this price too, maybe slightly more.
When I bought Anastasia in 2012 she was also around 100 euros and her parents had pedigrees and such.
You are right though, chances are these shady people do want a kitten so they can re-sell it, they ain't getting one

In the meantime Milla's diarrhea is still very very bad, granted she only went just now after about 8 hours of her last movement, she's had nothing but dry food and water and it was still very explosive and very much nothing but watery mush She is on antibiotics too but last time the meds took effect in a few hours if I remember correctly.
My mom wants to have bloodwork and all done on Monday but we can't do that while she is on antibiotics so we'll wait it out and see how it goes.

I'm not too worried about Milla since she plays and is very active, eats well and all so it's clearly her stomach flora being messed up again.
I'm sure she'll be fine, it just might take a tad longer this time is all.

[Lilith]

I'm sorry to hear you've had some oddballs enquiring - yes, you do get them and it's definitely best to choke them off. Time wasters.

While it's quite true Macedonia needs more like you, serious breeding, as you say, is a big thing to go into. I only bred for fun and the love of the breed, and though in the UK there was a fixed price that all breeders went by, breeding was definitely a hobby rather than a money-spinner. I was in touch with many breeders at the time and yes, we loved the hobby and the breed but the problems could crop up - we all had our share of disaster or near disaster. Personally I wouldn't breed again, and not just because the UK is at saturation point where cats are concerned. It IS very draining emotionally, and a risk for the breeding queens if things don't go well, to say nothing of the kittens. You can take every sensible precaution but fate can outwit you.

But you've had a lot of joy from these kittens - just a pity you've been pestered by these idiots

Hope Milla's diarrohea is on the mend now and that you get some sensible people enquiring after kittens - all the very best

[Joe_Danger]

Finally found good people for Marco, not that I want to part with him but what can we do.
Problem is, yesterday a girl from college called and she has experience with cats but isn't very educated about them yet and would provide a good home for him but she is still a kid, way younger than I am and is from another town, she lives here in Skopje during college but I'm sure she is going back home eventually since that's the way we do things here. She says her family is cool with having another kitten, after all they recently lost a 14 year old male who wasn't neutered and since they weren't informed of the benefits of neutering and thought it was wrong they put up with his spraying for 14 years, they say he never went outside either.
She is more informed now and understands why neutering a male is a good thing, fortunatley hers wasn't very difficult despite not being fixed or so she says.

On the other hand just now a lady called who JUST lost her beloved cat to spaying my biggest fear btw, the surgery went fine and the poor cat, only a year and a half old died 3 days later despite there being no visible complications, she wasn't fixed during heat or anything supposedly several days later when it's safe.
The woman sounded AMAZING for Marco, very knowledgable and very loving, both she and her husband fell in love with Marco and want to take him home, I know they can give him a wonderful home.
How do I tell the girl from college I'd rather home Marco at this lady's house, I don't want to offend or upset her and I don't want her getting mad at me over this. I appear as if I'm toying with people here but for many a reason I'd rather have Marco be adopted by adults and not students.

To be honest I don't want to see Marco go but I don't want anyone to go for that matter, so I figured I'd keep the one who stays last and it turns out that's Kala lol

After hearing yet another recent tragedy of a cat dying after getting fixed here, I heard one too many in the past year I'm not sure what to do with Milla either, I know the risk is low but this past year suggests it's greater than it seems.

[Lilith]

I see your dilemma, and that you want a stable home for Marco - would it be possible to tell your student friend an outright lie about the other lady having been in touch before but that some domestic crisis, internet down, something, prevented her from getting back to you and that you'd thought she wasn't interested? But that she is, and has prior claim? (I hate telling lies myself, but this is the sort of lie better told so as not to hurt someone's feelings.)

The stories about female cats not surviving spaying are disturbing, I agree. I think I've only ever heard of one case, but it's always a risk, letting an animal go under anaesthetic, whether it's for teeth, x-ray, whatever - I hate having to sign that form. Put it this way, there are far more survivals, and personally I'd get both Milla and Kala done, and they wil be able to get on with their lives and have fun without all the hormones driving them (and you) mad. It's always nerve-wracking, that day when they're at the vet's and you have to wait until the phone-call gives the ok, I know, but once it's over it's over. If you decided to go on breeding you'd be faced with the same situation when they got too old to have kittens, never mind possible caesareans etc...been there, done that.

Oh boy, they're like doubles, you'll have the the terrible twins running about, into everything!