Milla had her kittens

[Mayday21]

That's great news. Isn't the feline world amazing. Vivian

[Joe_Danger]

This is a very interesting experience
I think the kittens' sense of hearing is starting to kick in and Milla seems to know this, before when she'd enter her nest she'd just go in, they'd start all mewing and she'd clean them and stuff without saying a word, but starting last night and all day today she announces her presence when she slowly walks in and responds to their mews with a gentle mew of her own.

In fact, she responds to them very often now where as before she'd just communicate with them through purring.

I know it's too early to celebrate, anything could happen but this has been a very rewarding and fascinating week for me, I got a bit stressed over their "hissing" this morning but who would have thought that was hissing, I mean come on

[Crewella]

Lovely updates.

I thought the 'hissing' thing was hilarious, it's a bit of a 'fail' isn't it:

"hisssssssssssssssssssssssss"

"Erm ...... what are you doing ..... are you OK?"

"Yes ..... I'm sounding big and scary and warning you off....."

"Ah ...... erm ........ OK then ......... if you're sure you're OK ......."

[Joe_Danger]

The kittens are doing great, here's a pic I took today while Milla was off doing her own thing for a bit tho the moment I sat down to take the picture she came running and started complaining
http://i.imgur.com/a5QT4Ml.jpg
you can't quite tell here but they're pretty big

here's a pic I took the other day of her and the kittens, they're bigger now
http://i.imgur.com/avUDp6I.jpg
This morning she demanded the bedding to be changed btw, so she let us do that no problem.

Now guys I HAVE to voice my concern about Milla, sorry im annoying
I know it's probably nothing but she has HUGE amounts of urine, like usually her pee balls in the litter are the size of a golf ball, maybe slightly bigger or smaller, but within that size range.

Now her pee is neither formed in the litter nor is it small, it's huge like really big...last time I saw this was with Anastasia who had CRF not a pretty sight and it's been like that ever since she gave birth.

I'm hoping it's just her holding it in for long and she does drink more water but she also eats more, nurses and eats a ton of dry food.
Normally she pees 3-4 times a day and the pee is golf ball sized when clumped up in the litter but now she pees ever 12-13 hours and it's absolutely huge.

I hope it's just her holding it in but seeing this much urine is worrysome given past experience.

But other than that she is happy, healthy, very playful and very caring for her kittens.
I mean she still plays fetch and brings objects back to me like a puppy even tho she has kittens

[Crewella]

Oh they're gorgeous!

I'm not a kitten expert, but I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Remember she's also dealing with the kitten's waste at the moment, as well as her own.

[Joe_Danger]

Her thirst is definitely greatly increased, I'm not happy about that at all
Searched online but couldn't find info on whether or not increased thirst is normal in nursing cats, she drank a heck of a lot more water than she ever has yesterday alone. I was monitoring her and yeah, hopefully it's normal but without confirmation that nursing queens have greatly increased thirst I can't help but worry given past experiences with this.

She also developed a bit of an allergy apparently, that thing where their lower lip gets kind of swollen, Anastasia would get that sometimes too and it would clear itself up in no time so I'm not too worried about that. I suspect it's because she had fish this week, though she's never been allergic to fish before but you never know, she shows no signs of it bothering her and her appetite is as good as ever, she is happy and bouncy so that's all good but if the increased thirst is a sign of something it'll be bad. She definitely does drink a lot more than ever.

We'll see
can't take her to the vet now, it's cold outside and she has kittens to tend to but hopefully greatly increased thirst in a nursing queen is normal.

Update: Since Milla is definitely drinking a lot, I called my vet
She was very happy to hear from me and was happy with the progress the kittens are making, she always asks for photos and info. In her opinion there is no room for concern since the kittens eat a lot. She says if I'm that concerned we can do bloodwork and all after the kittens are weaned but she is certain there's no room for concern.
I hope she is right, but Milla drinks a ton of water even though she eats both dry and wet food

[Lilith]

Hi, her thirst will be increased because of all the milk she's having to produce. I remember in my childhood, all the breast-feeding aunties solemnly drinking down a pint of milk (ugh) before plugging the baby in lol. The big wee clumps will be because she's not going as regularly and saving it all up - this I've read is typical in feral cats, who feel vulnerable and don't want to leave much trace of smell behind them; a cat with kittens may feel much the same. Even though she's perfectly safe, that instinctive part of her that tells her to guard herself and kittens from any predators will warn her to keep any traces of their existence to a minimum - that'll also be why she prefers the tray away from the nest, and why she tells you to change their bedding. And, as Crewella says, she's also having to deal with the kittens' wees etc.

Honestly, you're not annoying - threads like this are learning curves for us all

I don't have any experience of fish allergy but there are people on here who do. Love the pics! Trust that big white one to be on the end nipple (I was once told that the end nipples produce the most milk.) But never fear, they all look as if they're getting their fair share, talk about little dumplings; Milla's a great mother

[Joe_Danger]

The kittens are growing strong
Took this pic earlier today when I came home from college
http://i.imgur.com/jmYSsFu.jpg

and this one later during the day when it was time to change their bedding
http://i.imgur.com/Fbsmzjg.jpg

I would have taken more and cleaner pics but they started crawling all over and Milla got very very agitated as soon as they all started wiggling around and wanted them inside as soon as possible, she doesn't want to pick them up herself yet tho she did sort of try but was clearly afraid to, so I put them back in one by one
They're bigger, heavier now, every once in a while I pick one up and pet it a bit so it gets used to human contact.

[Mayday21]

Hi Joe thanks for the pics especially on my Xmas Eve. They're gorgeous. Hope you'll be able to post one with Milla with her babies. Wishing you & yours a safe & merry Xmas. Vivian

[Crewella]

They really are gorgeous, and look wonderfully plump and healthy!

I can't help noticing that your little white kitten seems to be developing 'Daz' eyebrows.

Daz eyebrows.jpg (56.56 KiB) Viewed 5073 times

[Mayday21]

Crewella Daz's eyebrows gorgeous. Vivian

[Kristy44]

Looks so beautiful!

[Lilith]

Aww they are great and Milla looks so pleased with herself!

You can tell they've grown - a beautiful litter and all congrats to you and Milla.

That little tortie's going to be the image of her mother and as for the Daz eyebrows - lol! I've known white cats with a smudge of grey on their foreheads but never seen those eyebrows before - cool! The gingers are lovely too - got a soft spot for gingers.

A very lovely and healthy litter - keep the pics coming and happy holidays

[Crewella]

I thought the same thing - the little tortie looks like she will be a mini Milla!

[Joe_Danger]

Merry Christmas y'all, sorry I completely forgot it's Christmas for you guys since ours isn't until after New Years

My vet says the gray spots on the white one might disappear, apparently both of his older brothers had them and they disappeared over time, would be awesome if they don't though.
I love them all so much, it's impossible to choose which one we're keeping if we are going to keep one but we're strongly considering it.

And Daz is so badass with those eyebrows, hope mine grows up to be like that

[Lilith]

Hey I never knew that, that the Christmas is different in Macedonia. I wondered when you mentioned still being at college but thought the term dates were different. I'm peculiar lol and don't do Christmas (long story) but hope you have a good time

I have a sneaking feeling you're planning to keep the white lad with the eyebrows? Milla will be delighted - mother cats adore their biggest kittens and always like to keep a kitten anyway - it softens the blow of parting with the full litter. I kept my first Siamese's firstborn, and when she went into labour with a later litter, she strode over to him, gripped him by the neck, and tried to haul him into the kittening box...he was bigger than she was!

[Joe_Danger]

Every day I want to keep a different one
Like, when I noticed the calico one is slightly skinnier than the big ones, I swore NOBODY is ever taking her away from me because I just don't trust anyone to give her the love and care I can lol, she is strong and very active, very aware too.
When they were born the big brown one who I believe is even bigger than the white one tbh was born in like dunno what it's called, a membrane thing(I haven't studied biology/physiology in years...i was sooo good at it too in high school and my first college) and we broke him out of it and I swore he isn't leaving this house, the white one came last...guess what I felt...the one with a cow like patterns? She came first...i assume she is a girl dunno why, same feeling.

I can't for the life of me decide, I think the best and most fair will be to keep the one that comes last.
But I think I'm going to end up keeping the calico/tortoise one because there's something very tender and gentle about her, she is also very aware and today she did something I didn't know a kitten this young could do, I was aruing with Milla because she took a flash drive of mine to play with and as I sat down next to the kittens the calico one looked at me, every time I'd open my mouth she'd lift her head and look in my direction tho I doubt she could see much given how young she is or could hear well.
I put my hand inside and she started rubbing her head against it.

Figured, hey it's an accident, tried it again, she did it again

I just dunno lol...so emotional and wonderful

I love them all equally

I'd love to keep the white or brown guy, but if I'm to keep either of them they'd need to be fixed at 4-5 months before they sexually mature or we risk major issues with spraying since boys are like that, unfortunately my vet would never agree to neutering a male before he sexually matures so...I dunno

[Lilith]

Ohh, decisions, decisions lol!

I MEANT to sell all my first Siamese litter - but there was one girl who curled up in my hands at 3 weeks and just purred. The textbooks tell you that kittens don't relate to humans at that age. Ha! Sod the textbooks is all I can say! She stayed. Just as well. I can't imagine anyone else who'd have put up with her...

I also kept the aforementioned boy with a view to showing him and selling him as a young adult...lol. My heart wasn't in showing and he stayed (his name was Joe too lol.) I didn't end up neutering him till he was 9 months old (he didn't roam as the garden was enclosed) and he never sprayed - mind you they're all different; personally I think the earlier the better re neutering but I realise what you're up against vet-wise. The traditional age here used to be 6-7 months and I never had a (male) sprayer. Plenty of female ones but the only male sprayer I've had to deal with was a middleaged feral tom.

Also in a flat, with his mother keeping him a baby (as they do) I don't think he'll start to compete and show off his macho skills - at least I hope not.

Going to be fun, deciding!

[Joe_Danger]

oh snap
one of the kittens has its eyes shut, the white with brown splodges one, I assume it's a girl I dunno.
It seems to be an eye infection or some crust is keeping her eyelids shut, so the vet told us it's an extremely common thing and nothing to worry about but you know me I can't help but worry. She told us what to apply to her and it should clear up in a few days but of course the internet says a whole lot more that needs to be done which i find rather distressing for such a small kitten and on this one I'd rather trust my vet.
Kitten is fine, active and eating, it's just her eyes are shut. She HATES having her eyes cleaned and drops being put but otherwise doesn't mind being helpd, but boy does she fight as soon as the drops or cloth get close to her eyes and Milla gets all worked up too.

My vet reassured me it's nothing dangerous and a very common occurrence, the kitten is active, it eats well and is quite aware now too...but again I do feel slightly uneasy
Problem is Milla, she really hates it when you try to clean the kittens eyes and stuff, like gets very very upset and angry, she lets us hold and pet the kittens but this bothers her big time.

I wonder if this is going to sort itself out or if it's a more dangerous situation than we currently think.
Taking the kitten to the vet in this cold is out of the question, plus that would stress Milla out, and the vet said there's no need.
The internet says vets have a technique of opening shut eyelids like this but my vet didn't say anything about that. She assures me it's no big deal and so far she's been right about most everything.

[Crewella]

I had a litter of kittens here in the summer and was worried about one kitten's eyes when it first arrived, but all was well after a couple of days. Keep a close eye on things, but I think you do have to trust your vet here. Just stay vigilant and tell your vet if there are any changes. xx

[Joe_Danger]

Now I have this strong feeling that if she is fine and pulls through which she will given how active and hungry she is, she is NEVER leaving this house...but I know I can't keep em all lol and I love them all so much
I can't see well so I can't see just what's going on with her eyes but from what we can tell it's just crust it's not infected or green or anything. I can't tell for sure but I THINK her eyes might be opening up a tad but again can't see well enough to tell even tho I'm an artist and an illustrator for children's books I'm legally blind so it's kinda hard to see, when their eyes are open it's easy to see they're open but I can't quite tell what's up right now.

[Lilith]

Yes - as Crewella says - it can be normal. Milla will wash the kittens' eyes too and the opening will be gradual and a little stickiness nothing to be worried about. It is a worry, especially with your own eyesight difficulties, having to bathe them, and with kitten struggling and Milla objecting, but in a short while the eyes will be open and clear. Generally the only thing that can go wrong is in a feral litter in very dirty conditions where the eye gets gummed up with dirt and doesn't open - but that's not going to happen here. All the best

[Joe_Danger]

good news, her right eye opend up, not fully but enough for me to see it clearly
Milla had no objection to me holding the kitten but when we tried to apply some warm water with a clean cloth the kitten started struggling and milla freaked out, but it was all pretty funny to watch, eventually they both settled down

I hope it all turns out good

[Mayday21]

That's gear news. I too don't have great sight! Can't see clearly 6ft! Have worn specs since I was 6! The eye specialist explained to me "my pupils aren't soccer balls - rugby balls & laser not a good idea! Dealt a bad deal in the gene pool there!" But appear to have scored the best gene pool for kitties-my paternal grandmother stole a kitty that was being neglected. And a paternal cousin, when passing had 99 cats living in the house. When my aunt called & told my dad about the state of the house re 99 cats he replied "I'll have to watch Viv!"

[Joe_Danger]

I think both eyes are good now, her right eye is fully open and her left one is almost fully open so it's all good.
Milla finally spends less time with them, goes in, cleans them, lets them eat and then is out and about doing her usual stuff, which I think is good, her peeing seems to be slowly normalizing as well.

She is of course very very hungry, the brown and white kitten are huge and the other two aen't that far behind either, so they probably take a lot out of her, she's got food and water so all she has to do right now is eat, feed her kids and play

I'm not sure at what point we should start leaving a little water in the nest, some sites say 3 weeks others 4 weeks.
There's some contradicting info on the internet about most things.
They are all very aware now, react to sounds and smells even more than before

There's also another thing I want to ask guys
I can't find kitty milk/cat formula here, it's either not sold in my country or people don't know what it is we're trying to find I dunno

What's an alterantive for this? Of course most people here aren't aware that cats are lactose intolerant so everyone just suggests milk but while Anastasia had no issues and drank milk and loved it, Milla IS lactose intolerant if she drinks too much so I assume her kittens will be as well.
We need milk that's safe for them so we can start mixing it with their food come 4 weeks.

Some people recommend some type of milk used for babies, my mom suggested that too but I don't understand babies nor do I know what type of milk they drink so I'm not sure if the milk we bought would be suitable for the kittens as well.

[Crewella]

I'm out of my depth here as I've not ever fed kittens milk, but I believe goat's milk is OK for cats and kittens if nothing else is available?

[Joe_Danger]

both eyes are fully open this morning and she(I assume it's a girl ) was up and about but this time I think she was much more confident in her movement what with being able to see well and all.
Now the kittens sit with their heads raised up like proper cats

[booktigger]

I wouldn't worry about using milk to help them wean, I rarely do that and kittens wean fine - some go straight for mums food rather than the mashed up food for them! Once they start eating they'll need a litter tray. I've never left water in the nest sounds rather dangerous to me. Once they start walking they'll find it.

[Lilith]

Yes, as Booktigger says, there's no need to worry about milk. They're getting all the milk they want from Milla - when they start to be weaned they'll want meat, and when weaning time comes they'll decide and so will Milla, who may even call them to her food dish as they start to come out of the nest and explore. What generally happens though is that one bold kitten sniffs at the meat, has a taste, and gets stuck in - and the rest follow. From thinking - will these kittens ever be weaned, you'll be seeing them stuffing themselves. They will, of course, go on feeding from their mother until the day they leave for their new homes, but that's chiefly for comfort.

So, you really don't need to do anything. Make sure Milla's fed from a dish shallow enough for them to reach, and when they're ready they'll find it. When that happens you can try them with their own dish of food mashed with a little warm water but don't be worried if Milla eats that and leaves her meal to the kittens lol. And they'll all start eating at different times; don't worry if there's a slow one - it'll learn soon enough.

And yes, again as Booktigger says, you'll need a shallow cat tray for them, as near to the nest as Milla permits

[Joe_Danger]

I knew Kala, the tortoise/calico one would be like her mom, she may be the smallest but she is the most active one, first to open her eyes, first to react to sound long before the others did, first to walk around and what not.
She was even the first to get a name because of her personality

Well today she kept looking at me and every time I'd open my mouth she'd come closer and closer towards me so I figured I'd take her out of the nest, I've been doing that to the kittens since yesterday to get them slowly accustomed to the outside environment though the other 3 don't care much, they look around, crawl a bit whatever, Milla leaves them be for a bit then wants them in.

So I figured Kala would be the same as her brothers.....not quite
I took her out, placed her on the floow and she starts walking almost like a fully fledged cat, she looks around and clearly memorizes the environment as best as she can considering her eyesight is still not the best and starts walking in a direction she decided was the most fun, a bit of tumbling, lots of crawling and some walkin with Milla starting to freak out so I figure I'd put her back in, the nesting box is quite tall too.

Milla settles down but not Kala, no sirie, she starts walking all over the box and believe it or not trying to climb the walls and sure enough before we know it Milla is freaking out over something again and Kalla is almost out of he nest about to fall over. she did this three times before Milla finally went in and had a talk with her.

Now we really really need to be careful, the other ones are active but not this active, this one? This one will be out and about by tomorrow and I hope to god somebody doesn't step on her or she doesn't get under my computer chair or something without me noticing it. This kitten is clearly has Milla's extremely hyperactive nature already.