Milla had her kittens

[Mayday21]

Aaah Torties full of personality! But I'm biased here. I read on my sister's public Facebook that my mum's cat gave up in early May. Tim Tam was a seal point Birman who was originally with my sister but was being bullied by a Manx so mum & dad took her aged 5 or 6. She was 16 or 17 this year. When mum died my sister took Timmy back. Mum & Timmy had a close bond & when mum died a day later Timmy was on her bed with tears down her nose - I think she died of a broken heart. She's with mum now & I can here mum calling her. Vivian

[Lilith]

Lol - torties don't just have attitude - they have tortitude!

I remember it well - the flat-footed 'cat breeder's shuffle' with little things zooming everywhere like frogs.

Happy days!

[Mayday21]

Lilith yes but sweet 'tortitude' my Mayday was the sweetest little girl. Hope 2016 is kind to you & yours. Hugs Vivian

[Lilith]

Oh they are - my last tortie, Tess, was aka 'Tessy Tiger' but also 'Sweet Tess' - sadly missed.

Thanks and happy New Year to you and everyone here, hope we all have a good one and many more of them

[Joe_Danger]

Happy New Year everyone! Hope y'all have a great year
2015, for me, was a wonderful year so I hope 2016 is so too. Already started on a good note since two amazing retro games arrived in the mail

Casper and Medo - both are big, fat, slow and eat a lot! Medo is a deminutive in a way of Bear, mainly used for male bears, sort of like Teddy I suppose.
http://i.imgur.com/auxmSF9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dhG26gB.jpg

Masha - we assume she is a girl, if it's a boy she is getting a simple name change she is very gentle and tender and not very brave at all, she has a lovely pattern that sort of resembles that of a cow so we call her the cow more often than not, she was the first to be born. I just don't have a good shot of her because she wouldn't leave her mom's side
http://i.imgur.com/q7xjgUz.jpg

Kala - she is insanely hyper active already despite not being a month old, is very fast and when out of the nest she explores her surroundings big time which makes Milla freak out, the others just stay put and slowly move around, but not Kala, she is like her mom, she is in a new spot before you know it which irritates Milla quite a bit, she also constantly tries to get out of the nest by herself and Milla gets very worked up over that too
http://i.imgur.com/i07CVw9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4Y1JGI2.jpg

This is what happens every time in a matter of seconds when Kala is out and Milla is so very much upset over this
http://i.imgur.com/z0fCz4I.jpg

Eventually Milla caught her to clean her up
http://i.imgur.com/vQ874Af.jpg

a few random pics
http://i.imgur.com/NY2IuLH.jpg
^ This looks like Mila and Kala are having a talk about Kala's hyper behavior or somethin

Milla looking like the queen she is on New Years eve
http://i.imgur.com/1frqxLF.jpg

She is not upset in this one, she just meowed and accidentally ended up looking this way, but it's an aweosme tho a tad blurry pic
http://i.imgur.com/YdAmHoY.jpg

[bobbys girl]

Lovely pictures. Glad to hear they are all doing so well.

[Mayday21]

Absolutely gorgeous! And love the stories that you post re: Mila's interaction with Kayla. You should be so proud of yourself for what you & Mila have achieved. Hugs to you Mila & her beautiful offspring. Reminds me of when I bought my darling Mayday home after fishing her out of the water. Vivisn

[Crewella]

Those really are gorgeous pics, thank you for sharing them.

[Lilith]

Hi Joe and happy new year

Those pics are great - lovely to see them growing up and how proud Milla is! Kala is obviously the delinquent 'naughty tortie' - and like a mirror image of her mother.

I came across this site, in case you fancy finding out if Masha is a Masha or a ?Marius lol.

http://www.burnthwaitessiamese.co.uk/20 ... ing-guide/

I look forward to more pics and stories

[Joe_Danger]

It appears that Masha is a Marco
But his personality is so gentle and loving and he never leaves his mom's side, plus he looks like a girl cat somehow it was an honest mistake

[Lilith]

Lol - good old Marco! It'can be hard to tell, especially when they're so tiny. I've had a couple of kittens like that myself. The lads do tend to be soppy and 'mother's boys' though - it's the females that tend to be bold and naughty, like your Kala

[Joe_Danger]

So I've been doing a lot of reading on cat's spraying and it's all just stuff I already know and am well aware of.
My vet won't budge and won't neuter any of the males before they sexually mature, taking them to a different vet would be insulting since they're form her tom and she is a genuinely nice lady who loves them with all her heart.
She guarantees the male won't spray after neutering and even if he used to, but I know that there's still a chance if he is fixed after he sexually matures.
I don't know which kitten I'm keeping if any, but we're probably keeping one. I do want a big, fluffy male cat but the whole spraying thing does worry me given my situation.

If he can't stop after being fixed we have no way of fixing that or consulting much less having a cat behaviorist work with him since there are no such things in my country, vets barely know and understand cat behavior here let alone expecting there to be genuine professional cat behaviorists lol

I think the safest would be to keep Kala but who knows
even with her we won't be able to get her fixed before she sexually matures given my vet's convictions.

[Lilith]

Hi, don't know if I've posted this before (sorry if I'm repeating myself) but traditionally, in the UK, 6 months used to be the age for neutering male kittens, and one of my boys who I showed as an entire tom, I never had neutered until 9 months - and none of them sprayed. They are all different, of course!

But I would have thought that by six months a male should be developed enough for neutering - what age does your vet say?

Also I had a couple of mature feral toms come to live with me - after neutering one went on spraying, but I id tain him out of it, though it took months. The other one, also neutered and very dominant too, never sprayed at all...see what I mean, all different

[meriad]

I've adopted two boys, both aged two. Both were neutered just before I got them and neither of them has ever sprayed...

I know it's all very exciting to have kittens etc, and I'm so pleased Milla is doing so well and you're enjoying her and the kittens, but please do have her spayed now she's had her litter; there are so many kittens in shelters desperate for homes; deliberate breeding (regardless of pure breed or not) just isn't helping them. Sorry to be a bah humbug and apologies if you've already said you're having her done.

And please make sure that whoever adopts the kittens has them all neutered / spayed as well and doesn't breed from them. It's not fair on them to become breeding machines


there, I'll get off my soap box now

[Joe_Danger]

I've adopted two boys, both aged two. Both were neutered just before I got them and neither of them has ever sprayed...

I know it's all very exciting to have kittens etc, and I'm so pleased Milla is doing so well and you're enjoying her and the kittens, but please do have her spayed now she's had her litter; there are so many kittens in shelters desperate for homes; deliberate breeding (regardless of pure breed or not) just isn't helping them. Sorry to be a bah humbug and apologies if you've already said you're having her done.

And please make sure that whoever adopts the kittens has them all neutered / spayed as well and doesn't breed from them. It's not fair on them to become breeding machines


there, I'll get off my soap box now

look, PLEASE don't guilt trip me any further than I already am
I don't live in your country, I don't live in the western world and I don't follow your rules, alright
I wanted to get her fixed when I got her, my vet refused.
When you live in Macedonia you can preach to me to get her fixed and guilt trip me about shelter kittens...btw we don't have shelters here as far as i'm aware, mayhbe we do some but for the most part there's plenty of happy and healthy strays outside fed by kind people and believe me they have a happier, healthier and better life than the shelter cats in your world who keep getting put down despite being perfectly healthy.

I'm sick and tired of having to justify my actions and my choices in life to Americans, Canadians, UK people and other people from big countries, it really is exhausting.
From constantly being called a racist and a homophobe, a loser and a now an animal abuser beause my cat had kittens...even tho most people's cats in my country have kittens I'm unable to deal with this stuff anymore.

I do my best to provide my beloved pets with the best possible life they can have within our means and in my country and culture.

When you are seen as an animal abuser by people in real life for having spayed your cat because "you didn't ever give her a chance to be a mother and have a family of her own" maybe you'll understand.

Also preaching to people to fix the kittens is only going to result in the kittens not being adopted most likely and plenty of people here love and care for their pets despite not fixing them because they're simply uninformed and don't read online and don't follow these things, many people see getting a cat fixed as the wrong thing to do, many still follow the old fashioned way of thinking that fixing is best done after sexual maturity.
I can't fight the ****** system

this type of comments irritate me to no end because westerners always come and preach to me about how I should live my life and how I should do things.

So making me feel worse than I already feel about not being able to provide my cat with the right medical care and all as I read on the ****** internet doesn't make this any better.

Try having a cat with CRF and vets who refuse to administer SubQ fluids even though she needs them, depserately and try fighting CRF all by yourself with zero support form vets and then come to me and tell me how I should fix my cat to appease the western world.

We'll see
maybe we'll have her fixed, maybe not
I want to but we'll see

Sorry I'm being an ass right now
but there ain't NOTHING I hate more than people preaching to me about things I already know when they don't know my situation

[Joe_Danger]

When I tell people I'm getting her fixed all I keep hearing is how I don't have the right to do that to her, people here don't understand these things, of course there are many who do but even more do not.
I wanted to get her fixed at 4 months, I'm not having kittens for fun nor am I having them for money, I work as an illustrator and graphics designer
http://shinigamikiba.deviantart.com/gallery/
^ there, you can check out some of my work if you don't believe me tho I don't post stuff I do for work there due to copyright reasons

I make good money, I don't need money from my cat
All I want for my cats is for them to have healthy and happy lives, but to do that I have to argue with vets left and right, ending up on every god dang vet's bad side is kind of...not a very good idea ya know. Vets here are vain, they are very nice but very full of themselves, they don't like it when some random guy without a degree walks in and tells them what he read on the internet and expects them to do things the way the internet says.

I'm sorry but I hold enough guilt in my heart for not being able to provide my beloved cats with everything the westenr world offers, rubbing it in further ain't gona make things better

EDIT: I really am sorry but I get very irritated, every forum I go to someone from America or Canada tells me how to do things and mentions these shelter cats.

Know what? Your system is TERRIBLE
You kill animals just because you can, that's not normal, that's insane.
Believe me, a cat is better off living outside than being DEAD, that's like killing homeless people because they have no home.

My neighborhood has 3 stray dogs and a bunch of stray cats
The dogs are well taken care of and loved by everyone, the cats are also fed and they also find food for themselves, they're stray cats, they hang around trash cans and dumpsters but holy rubbish people that's what stray cats do, they all have clean, shiny coats and are pretty chubby...kind of seems to me they're better off doing that than being ya know, dead.

At my grandparents who live downtown Skopje there are a bunch of big, fluffy, healthy dumpster cats too
again it'd be better if they have a home but they're still doing better than being DEAD

I read a topic on this forum that some healthy cats are going to be put down because...gasp...the family had a baby and the cats needed to go
Believe me, they would've been better off keeping the cats outside and feeding them as they slowly adjusted to life outside than getting them KILLED

there

hate me now

this whole forum is free to hate me for my backwards estern european non politically correct views

[meriad]

Wowzer, wasn't quite expecting that - and please at no point did I ever ever ever accuse you of animal abuse. All I simply said was to please consider neutering - that's it. Apologies if I offended; that was not intended

[Joe_Danger]

yeah I have a short fuse on the internet, but not in real life.
I always feel like westerners try to impose their culture and values on me.
Heck just last night I spent hours arguing on a video game forum because some people accuse me of being racist over something I said when racism wasn't even remotely on my mind.
I understand you didn't accuse me of animal abuse, but others have in the past on other forums simply because I got Milla pregnant.

It's a complicated situation, of course I want her fixed, I wanted her fixed from the start and I used to post and complain here about it but that's the way things turned out. we'll see.
Milla's mom was 12 when we got her, perfectly happy and healthy and of course I personally wouldn't ever breed a cat past 5 years but people don't know these things, the people we got Milla from loved their cat to pieces, she was treated like a queen, to them her having kittens was simply normal and natural.

Also, again, I'm sorry I lashed out...I do that over the internet due to past very very negative experiences.
I can't help it , it's really an issue for me when I feel like i'm told how to do things and I'm always at odds over something with people from big countries.

Like I half the time I don't even understand why I'm hated for things that are considered normal here.
I can't remember what it was, but I play this online game, Final Fantasy XIV, awesome game, so god knows what I said, meant no offense to anyone and my whole guild rained down on me for being intolerant, homophobic, god knows what lol so I left that guild and well went and did my own thing

[MarySkater]

Joe, if you go to your profile (via user control panel) you can enter your location. That facility wasn't working for a while, but it is now. If you put your country on there, it might help avoid the problem that people just assume you live in the same place that they do.

What you say about different ways of pet keeping is very interesting.

Mary

[Joe_Danger]

Thanks
It's not that it's different so much as I dunno....of course many people get their pets fixed here too, heck Anastasia, the cat I had before Milla I had fixed at 4 months and she was fine but that particular vet didn't mind...on the other hand he laughed us out of his office when we insisted 5 years later she was showing signs of kidney failure and when told she doesn't eat or drink for days he responded with "it's a cat, she will eat and drink when she feels like it, she is fine" he wouldn't do bloodowrk(for some reason every vet i've been to hates doing this and avoids it unless something is wrong) and had we not insisted and argued with him Anaastasia would have died right then and there, sure enough my suspicion was confirmed and she did indeed have CRF. She lived with it for 2 years and nobody would want to do anything except order special food(at least she LOVED it, thank god since there was only two types avaliable), no sub q fluids, no pills no nothing. There were these speical pills for CRF cats but every vet flat out refused to order them and naturally you couldn't order the pills without a prescription online.

On the other hand vet care here is very cheap and very affordable, vets are exceptionally nice unless you insist they do something they don't think they should. Every vet I've been to does check ups and advice for absolutely free, if they only kept themselves informed and up to date on medical stuff pet healthcare would be incredible here.

Now on the subject of shelters, maybe we have some, but most of us regular folk honestly aren't aware of them and I dunno, we believe the western world's obsession with putting animals down just because they can't find a human home is absolutely barbaric and sick and there ain't no one and nothin that could convince me otherwise.

Overall life in my country while seemingly worse than that of the western world is much much more relaxed, interactions with people are much warmer and somehow more personal. I wouldn't live in the western world even if I could, you wouldn't believe me but a certain big company offered a job for me but I had to live and work in the US...no sir no thank you, I don't want to live in a world like that and I sure as heck don't want to raise my future children there either. I'm happy where I'm at, I just wish vets here were more informed and people understood that having your pet fixed isn't a bad thing, as I said many people understand this but many do not.

Like I've been trying to convince my friend to have his outdoor/indoor cat fixed for years now, his family refuses to and she keeps getting pregnant and she keeps having kittens. So what happened? Since she is an outdoor/indoor cat apparently some neighbor took her to get fixed without consulting my friend and now my friend's family is furious but he isn't, because I was able to convince him over the years that it's the right thing to do.

[Mayday21]

Hi Joe I volunteer for a vet every fortnight on a Sat. I've done this since Nov 2007. Reza is from Iran & his wife Taiwanese. As for the staff 2 female vets one is American, the other Japanese, one of the vet nurses is from Macedonia & another is married to a Swiss & returned to Ausralia after living in Switzerland for 7 years. And I grew up in Papua New Guinea. Thought you'd be interested in this cultural mix. Take care & no one means to deliberately criticise on this forum it's all about supporting people & sharing information. Alas sometimes posts can be interpreted incorrectly as we only see what's written. Keep us posted on everything. Vivian

[bobbys girl]

I think Vivian has a good point. A problem with the Internet is you can't see the other person, so you have to be careful what you write. Just like animals, we humans read faces and body language.

I am on another forum where there is one character with a weird sense of humour. When I first joined I was a little spooked (and sometimes offended) by some of his comments. Others who know him better say that's just the way he operates and he is OK really.... But as I can't see his face I can't tell if he is joking or not.

The vet closest to us (the one we used to go to) was a farm vet. Fine with big animals, a disaster with little ones. He hadn't a clue about kittens and when I found Willow, he couldn't tell me how old she was or how to look after her. He had never heard of kitten formula. I just know his response to Bob being FIV+ would be to have him PTS.

Some doctors here have a God complex and don't like it if you question their opinion. My OH has had a couple of run-ins with one of our doctors (near retirement and not up to date on modern medicines)

I do know what you mean about what we call 'The Smoke' (city life). I would hate that too. I come from a city (of sorts!) and now live in a very rural place. People STILL ask me if I would ever go 'home'. I tell them I AM home!

In an ideal world every cat (and dog) would have a healthy life in a loving home (inside or out). But it is far from an ideal world, so we have to do the best we can with what we've got. I am sure you are doing your best for kitties and they look fine on it. I am also sure that no one on this forum wants to offend or upset you.

Best wishes

Sue

[Joe_Danger]

We've been trying to find litter safe for kittens in stores to no avail for weeks now
My vet suggested it's time to put some litter out now and since the kittens are out and about that seemed like the logical thing to do. I knew the risks of putting clumping litter out but it was all we got for the time being, my vet says she's had 30 day old kittens and raised them many times with no problems using the same type of litter.

Well clearly Kala ran out of dumb things to do and teach her brothers, climbing the sofa didn't work out as she planned, climbing the wooden chairs also didn't work out so she turned her attention to the litter and started munching on it, I pushed her off, showed her how to dig and put her in front of a platter with food especially prepared for them...whch milla keeps licking off btw

The other kittens came up to the litter tray, walked inside it, walked out of it and nobody ate anything....that is until they saw Kala doing it again.
I came back to the kittens to see 3 of them with Kala in the middle munching on the dang litter so I took the tray, dumped the litter in Milla's litterbox and called my vet. She said she is going to try finding some regular sand/litter since she says she's never seen any of these fancy corn and paper litters I'm asking about.

I hope they didn't ingest a lot of litter and end up having problems or dying.
Nobody cared about the dang litter until they saw Kala doing it

She taught them how to get in and out of the nest now she is teaching them dumb things too it seems

[MarySkater]

It's a shame if your local stores don't offer the variety of litters that we get in the UK, where my local supermarket offers clumping, non-clumping and (my preference) wood-based pellets. I think you said that in your country, cats live outdoors more than indoors...? Maybe that's why there's not such a big market for cat litter. I've heard bad things about clumping litter, especially for kittens, so I think you're doing the right thing to look for an alternative. Do you have a garden or someplace that you could dig up some earth for them? That's not ideal as it would be bringing bugs etc into the house, and I suppose you'd have to check that there had been no weed killer or other poisons used on it. Or does anybody have experience of using garden compost (bought in bags) for cat litter? Or can you buy sand in bags, the clean sand intended for children's sand pits?

Good luck,

Mary

[Joe_Danger]

The vet gave me some litter, it doesn't say clumping on it and it was more expensive, I specifically said NO SCENTED Litter but get this, in the English description on the packaging it doesn't mention sceneted anywhere, in the Macedonian description it said Lavender and that's literally the one thing I asked not to be given. Fortunately it appears that it was a mislabeling because that's how things work here, people don't care, so fortunately the litter isn't scented. The litter doesn't smell of anything at all.
The vet says she's raised many many kittens on this litter and never had a single problem.
There's a bunch of different litters here, but not the ones I asked for.

I don't have a garden or anything, I live in the city in a building and getting dirt and stuff from outside is honestly not a good idea with parasites and what not.

As for cats living outside, I'm merely talking about strays but they're often well taken care of by neighborhoods.
Even the ones that are not seem fine, I always say, IMO it's better than being killed at some shelter somewhere, hoe that practice doesn't spread to our country.

I dunno guys, the vet says this litter is safe, but to me it looks the same as the one I'm always using just a different brand. Hopefully all will be well but you just never know, especially with how utterly uninformed everyone here seems and everyone seems to just be wining it with pets so whatever works works it seems.

[Joe_Danger]

Vets think we're weird for always asking for stuff we read on the internet.
That's why I blew up a few posts up since I know I'm not doing things right but I'm fighting a losing battle here since nobody seems to care to do things the way they're done abroad. People here believe that most of the stuff written on the internet is made up by breeders and companies that sell litter, food and such to make people buy their products which I honestly do believe, but I dunno.

There are so many people who have kittens since many choose not to get their pets fixed and I have yet to learn of anyone's kittens dying due to litter, on the other hand given how incompetent and uninformed people are it might have happened and people brushed it off as something else.
It's difficult dealing with people who utterly refuse to change their ways. I'm a stubborn man myself and all, but when it comes to somebody's life and welbeing I do my best to change my views and ways if at all possible.

Guys, thanks for the support
I'm doing my best here but I don't know if my best is good enough
There's an overwhelming amount of information and advice on the internet that I just can't follow through

[Lilith]

It's a minefield, Joe, I agree, and also, believe me, I think we're all anxious in a situation like this, with young kittens depending on us. even if there are no worries. I know I used to be.

I can only tell you my own experiences, but this litter eating is perfectly normal, whether they eat litter, garden earth, whatever, though personally not sure about sand (sorry, Mary.) It's a sign that they're getting ready to be weaned. When I last bred kittens, in the 80s, there was only one kind of litter, grey or white fuller's earth, and mine ate it and passed it (you could tell by the slimy little grey droppings in the tray) and they were all fine. As soon as they get seriously interested in solid food they stop litter eating.

Clumping grey or white litter is fuller's earth, which is a natural clay product (like kaolin) though if deooriser's added I agree that's a nightmare. But you can smell a deodoriser - they add the smell for the benefit of people, not cats, and you can often see little coloured bits in the litter. Do you think it's some kind of sales ploy, claiming to have lavender added even though the UK label says it's deodorant free?

I did read of another litter, and forget what it was, recommended on the forum as less worrying for kittens to eat, but chances are you wouldn't be able to find that either if choice is so limited.

I wish I could help you more on this but I've just got one suggestion - if the idea of using litter to tray train them freaks you out, why not give them their tray back - but lined with newspaper or kitchen paper? That way they'll get used to a tray and hopefully get weaned before they start investigating Milla's tray.

All the very best

[bobbys girl]

In my (fairly limited) experience with young cats, they have always taken easily to using a tray. They want to be clean and are not that fussed about what is in the tray. I have even had them going in the washing basket - that will teach me to leave it on the floor!

Once when I ran out of litter I used shredded kitchen towel. They all used it.

From what you have said, I think you are doing a great job.

Best wishes

Sue

[Joe_Danger]

I know eating litter is normal for such young kittens hence why we were looking for one that wouldn't be harmful for so long.
I guess since so many people here breed cats and use all sorts of random litters it'll be fine, my vet herself guarantees the kittens will be fine with the litter she gave us so all we can do is hope for the best.
Thank god the litter was simply mislabeled as lavander in the Macedonian description, the English one says nothing on that and of course it doesn't smell so it's definitely all good

[Joe_Danger]

It appears Casper figured out what to do in the litter, so that's great.

On the other hand Kala won't leave my side, at first I thought it was an accident the other day so I didn't say anything here, but for three days now she's been following me around everywhere I go, if I sit on the floor to play games she sits besides me or even climbs up in my lap.
Her brothers play and do their own thing but no, not Kala, the moment she senses I'm around she runs up to me as fast as she can and clings to me.
She even follows me in rooms they normally don't go by themselves.

So I think it's clear who isn't leaving this house

ever.
I wanted to keep Medo, the big brown one since he is stunning tom, but no way in heck could I ever part with Kala, she is so attached to me it's amazing, just like her mom.