Older cat and kitten advice needed

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Gill_2017
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Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:38 am

Hi all, firstly apologies if I ramble on as I've only just joined today. We already had a 3 year old resident rescue cat named Mully who we have had since he was 10 weeks old and after much debating ( we were going to do it last year but decided to wait a year) we decided to adopt a little female kitten from the same rescue we got Mully and she is 11 weeks old. When we first brought her home on Monday, Mully was unsure as expected lots of sniffing going on and he was curious but no real aggression and at most one hiss, since then he has started batting at her occasionally and they have began chasing each other round but he gets very rough and will go after he quite vigorously.

We did think this was just normal play behaviour and great he is starting to properly accept her and they are getting along, but yesterday and this morning he has started chasing after her and trying to grab her sometimes by the neck and he has nipped her on the belly once and has been at times reluctant in letting go of course we step in each time making lots of noise and shouting at him to stop which he then does as she is squeaking when he does this and we are worried it is hurting her. Has anyone else experienced this and what does it mean, i'm concerned he really wants to hurt her in which case I don't know where we go from here as my worry is this is setting up the path for the future meaning they will never be able to truly get along. Its very confusing as when we put her in her safe room if she cries he will call to her and look around for her, each morning they greet each other with nose boops and rubbing against one another and they have even slept not cuddled up but close to each other on the bed, so we then think they are getting along but then after these chase wars we become disheartened again. ( Mully is neutered by the way )

Any advice given would be much appreciated

Gillian

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Lilith
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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Lilith » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:50 am

Hi and welcome :)

I don't think you've got too much to worry about, but lads can get a bit too boisterous at times and it's as well to separate them when you can't supervise them. The neck-grabbing is sexual/dominant but most neuters don't know where to go from there lol.

It does sound as if they're very attached already, and the girl will soon be sticking up for herself and tormenting Mully - believe me, but yes, you need to watch out for her while she's little and new.

The only thing I wouldn't do is to shout or make a noise, as the kitten will find this frightening too. An emphatically hissed 'Mully! NO!' would be better in my opinion, and a glare into his eyes; both the hiss and the glare are cat-language for 'stop it!' I find my cats respond to a growled 'Right!' if I've had enough. Well, this is what works for me. Then when things have calmed down, tell him what a good boy he is.

Hope this helps, but I think things can only improve - please keep updating and all the best :)

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by greenkitty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:46 pm

What happens if you don't shout at him to let go? If she squeaks at him will he eventually release his grip on her?

It does sound like they're getting on well though :)

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:57 pm

greenkitty wrote:What happens if you don't shout at him to let go? If she squeaks at him will he eventually release his grip on her?

It does sound like they're getting on well though :)
Not immediately no hence the shouting which he then see's as he's done wrong and will get off. We are using a spray bottle now too if he's going for her which he is also getting the message from as he will stop in his tracks to avoid the spray.
We will be getting her spayed as soon as she is old enough so hopefully this will calm it down and when she gets a bit bigger she should be better at defending herself, I was worried it could be a mating thing but we thought with him being neutered and the fact she's a kitten that he wouldn't try that.

Gillian

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:08 pm

Just to give an insight into what they're doing, I took three videos which can be viewed using the following youtube links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmRpNlKGv2U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6eW3VRbKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9JkKnO3K6Y

Please let me know your thoughts on these.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Judy Barnett » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:48 am

We were lucky with Yowlee; when we found Georgia as a 10 week old we were a little worried about Yowlee being a bit rough with her. (We also had a big dog who turned out to be terrified of the kitten and would try to get under the bed to avoid her)! Yowlee would take just so much of Georgie bopping him on the head and trying to bite his tail and then a big, wide paw would shoot out and pin her to the floor as if to say 'enough junior'. I think its a personality thing and as long as they have enough room to get away from each other and the kitten has a bolt hole to escape to when you're not in the room they should work things out for themselves.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Lilith » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:05 pm

Wow. He IS rough, isn't he? And just look at little missis enticing him, little baggage :D

However, she will grow - and he'll get a shock, because if she's this bold already, she's going to become as big a thug as he is. Also, in the second video you can see him grip her neck - and then pull back, visibly inhibiting his bite. He knows how to be gentle, and she runs - but comes back for more.

Personally I'd keep them separated when not supervised, just for now, for your own peace of mind, but when she puts on a bit of weight - watch out Mully! :D

ps they're beautiful!

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:20 pm

Thanks for all the replies really helpful, that's what we are hoping that as she gets bigger she will give as good as she gets. It's funny you should mention about her going back for more as my partner picked up on this that sometimes she will gode him into it and wiggles her bum then kind of pounces and runs off which then almost invites him to give chase.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:27 pm

Lilith wrote:Wow. He IS rough, isn't he? And just look at little missis enticing him, little baggage :D

However, she will grow - and he'll get a shock, because if she's this bold already, she's going to become as big a thug as he is. Also, in the second video you can see him grip her neck - and then pull back, visibly inhibiting his bite. He knows how to be gentle, and she runs - but comes back for more.

Personally I'd keep them separated when not supervised, just for now, for your own peace of mind, but when she puts on a bit of weight - watch out Mully! :D

ps they're beautiful!
So tonight we witnessed the grabbing and he was seemingly trying to drag her by her scruff, would this imply he was trying to carry her or more dominance?

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:25 am

Major setback today after relatively peaceful day yesterday in that older cat attached agressivly for first time and was really going at kitten kicking her with his back legs. We are now considering make older cat who only goes out when we let him permanent indoor/outdoor as our hope is it will give him an outlet and a place to get away as well as much needed exercise, partner at his Witt's end and now exploring every option.

As it stands leaving them.alone doesn't ever seem like it's going to be an option but eventually we will have to as we can't leave her cooped up forever it's not fair and rehoming also never an option unless she was unhappy which thank god at the moment she seems unphased by it.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Lilith » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:23 am

Sorry Gill, I never saw your post on Monday.

Yes, it does sound like a dominance thing, and also I feel at the moment he sees her as a toy, or almost, dare I say it, nearly prey, especially in view of his trying to carry her off. This isn't too unusual; I used to breed Siamese and one of my older ones, a boy, managed to get into a room where there was a small kitten (shame on me.) He was a sweet-natured boy but I caught him batting poor little Tao about like a mouse. Tao wasn't hurt.

The stomach biting you mention n your first post - I've seen mother cats do that with kittens. Mully is just a bit confused at present though.

This of course is going to change as Kitten grows. Don't give up hope yet, just keep them separated when you can't supervise, and if he can safely go out, that's another good outlet for him. I've wired my garden in so that I can open the back door in fine weather and let mine run in and out as they like.

Mully is obviously not an easy cat to choose a friend for, much as he clearly loves having one, but judging by Kitten's reaction, you've made a very good choice indeed. When she's a kilo heavier, she'll be giving him hell.

Good luck and all the best, please keep updating :)

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:51 am

Lilith wrote:Sorry Gill, I never saw your post on Monday.

Yes, it does sound like a dominance thing, and also I feel at the moment he sees her as a toy, or almost, dare I say it, nearly prey, especially in view of his trying to carry her off. This isn't too unusual; I used to breed Siamese and one of my older ones, a boy, managed to get into a room where there was a small kitten (shame on me.) He was a sweet-natured boy but I caught him batting poor little Tao about like a mouse. Tao wasn't hurt.

The stomach biting you mention n your first post - I've seen mother cats do that with kittens. Mully is just a bit confused at present though.

This of course is going to change as Kitten grows. Don't give up hope yet, just keep them separated when you can't supervise, and if he can safely go out, that's another good outlet for him. I've wired my garden in so that I can open the back door in fine weather and let mine run in and out as they like.

Mully is obviously not an easy cat to choose a friend for, much as he clearly loves having one, but judging by Kitten's reaction, you've made a very good choice indeed. When she's a kilo heavier, she'll be giving him hell.

Good luck and all the best, please keep updating :)
Hi yes part of me thought it could be predatory but I was so hoping this wasn't the case :| . We have no garden but it's a cul-de-sac area we live in so relitively quiet, we do have a few cats round us but he doesn't really bother with them and we usually know where he goes. We are taking Lexi for her second lots of injections today so we will get the vets opinion aswell but i think a microchip catflap may well be in the very near future.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by booktigger » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:30 pm

Gill_2017 wrote:Major setback today after relatively peaceful day yesterday in that older cat attached agressivly for first time and was really going at kitten kicking her with his back legs. We are now considering make older cat who only goes out when we let him permanent indoor/outdoor as our hope is it will give him an outlet and a place to get away as well as much needed exercise, partner at his Witt's end and now exploring every option.

As it stands leaving them.alone doesn't ever seem like it's going to be an option but eventually we will have to as we can't leave her cooped up forever it's not fair and rehoming also never an option unless she was unhappy which thank god at the moment she seems unphased by it.
If I'm not mistaken, going off the dates in your post you adopted her on the 3rd July? If so, honestly, you are doing incredibly well in such a short space of time, and you just need to have more time and patience. It might not seem like you can never leave them alone now, but it is such early days, we don't normally recommend letting the cats see each other for the first week, so way too early to be thinking things won't improve.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:36 pm

She's been to the vets and vet said she's doing fine also recommend we get feliway friends diffuser so we've ordered one. Said if that doesn't calm things down then go down the route of making him indoor/outdoor.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:19 pm

So we are now completely convinced this mounting and pinning behaviour is sexual aggression as he is becoming aroused after he does it and he's not being nasty he just mounts her in the position they would for mating which she hates and will squeak loudly, he is neutered but I know from doing my research this means nothing as they will still have the urge.

Will this stop once she has been spayed because I assume its down to her scent that she's giving off? otherwise I keep reading that making her smell like a male will almost certainly curb the behaviour and have heard you can use boar mate spray which is what the UK version is called and apply this to the females rump and it will make her smell like a male so wont attract him. Has anyone tried this spray and does it actually work?

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Lilith » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Hi Gill, yes, I've known neutered males do this to a female in call, and they've shown no interest after the girl's been spayed. Your girl's a bit young to be giving off sex pheromones or whatever they call them - but you never know. I once had a Siamese who started calling at 4 months! :shock:

I've never heard of that spray, but with the way Mully is, I'd be a bit nervous of altering kitten's scent in any way as he might decide she was an intruder he had to see off, especially as he's already aroused. Sometimes it can happen that even a vet visit can alter the reaction of a cat's housemate, as to the other cat, it smells different.

Good luck - oh for the day when she'll turn round and clout him eh?

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:22 pm

Lilith wrote:Hi Gill, yes, I've known neutered males do this to a female in call, and they've shown no interest after the girl's been spayed. Your girl's a bit young to be giving off sex pheromones or whatever they call them - but you never know. I once had a Siamese who started calling at 4 months! :shock:

I've never heard of that spray, but with the way Mully is, I'd be a bit nervous of altering kitten's scent in any way as he might decide she was an intruder he had to see off, especially as he's already aroused. Sometimes it can happen that even a vet visit can alter the reaction of a cat's housemate, as to the other cat, it smells different.

Good luck - oh for the day when she'll turn round and clout him eh?
Hopefully spaying will stop it then as they are getting along better all the time and they don't fight at all it's just this mounting. She's going to be 5 months in September which is when the vet said they can do it.

She's not calling as she isn't actually making any noise but he will sniff and sometimes lick her anus and round that area and when he does mount her it's very random like he just gets in that mood then decides to do it.

We just figured the females give off some scent when they've not been spayed and it's probably stronger as they get nearer to sexual maturity which is what he's being drawn to.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by 7cats » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:47 pm

Our Buttons (male, neutered) does exactly this to Fidget (female, neutered). He would bite her neck, stand over her, pad his back legs but not actually be doing anything to her. Several times a day, we would have to tell him off.
We got him neutered at about 6 months when he was literally dumped on our door step by a pregnant lady. Just the cat, nothing else and she left.
Before he was neutered, it was Fidget beating Buttons up. Her nickname isn't Thug for nothing :lol:
We've realised this past week that he's stopped doing it half as much now. Not sure why but it could be something to do with Leo (male, neutered) putting his brave pants on and chasing Buttons around a bit more.
Either that or the cat nip has chilled him out some more. Buttons will be 3, maybe 4 this year as well.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by Gill_2017 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:25 pm

7cats wrote:Our Buttons (male, neutered) does exactly this to Fidget (female, neutered). He would bite her neck, stand over her, pad his back legs but not actually be doing anything to her. Several times a day, we would have to tell him off.
We got him neutered at about 6 months when he was literally dumped on our door step by a pregnant lady. Just the cat, nothing else and she left.
Before he was neutered, it was Fidget beating Buttons up. Her nickname isn't Thug for nothing :lol:
We've realised this past week that he's stopped doing it half as much now. Not sure why but it could be something to do with Leo (male, neutered) putting his brave pants on and chasing Buttons around a bit more.
Either that or the cat nip has chilled him out some more. Buttons will be 3, maybe 4 this year as well.
So it's just something you've learned to live with? We have just started leaving them alone for breif periods like going for short walks or when needing to go the shops.

We will be doing this more over the next month in preparation for the big one at the end of august .... We will be going away for 2 days and we plan to leave them with food set up and getting a neighbour to come in and check on them. We are also going to get one of those cameras aswell to set up that you can access from your phone to monitor them, we will only be going to a friend's 2 hours away so can get home if needs be.

I just hope the short periods of leaving continue to go well up until that point and we will of had her for 2 months by then so she should be even bigger and even more capable of standing up for herself.

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Re: Older cat and kitten advice needed

Post by 7cats » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:55 am

Learned to live with, yeah I guess so, Fidget helps by squeaking a lot if she's getting quite annoyed by Buttons doing it and sometimes you can see Buttons start to creep up behind her so we distract his attention on to a toy or string to give Fidge time to move out of his way.

I think you're doing the right thing, taking it slowly and giving them space and then time together. I'm sure they will be fine come the end of August.
I bet the camera's either catch them going doolally fun play time or you'll find them fast asleep and not bothered. I sometimes wonder what our lot get up to when we're not here.

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