Coco and Chanel dilemma

[Mollycat]

I was told Boo might have to be scruffed to be brushed. I'm not like that. I tried different brushes and combs till I found one he could bear a little and we worked on building the trust that I would be gentle. Eventually I would get the comb out and he would rub his cheeks on it, though some areas would still generate a mitted smack or a pretend bite. I'm quite proud of my ability to get cooperation from animals.

Yes, I find cat genetics interesting as well - not to the point of wanting to breed, but while fostering, interesting to see what the parents could be with some litters. My neighbour actually did a genetics test on one of her semi ferals, as she was convinced she had some kind of bengal in her, it turned out she didn't, but a slight amount of oriental. The other day Chanel came and laid on the bathroom floor while I was brushing my teeth, I threw a treat, which she ignored, so I sat down reading my kindle ignoring her in the hope she would come and get it, which she didn't. That has been one good thing about lockdown, a slower pace of life to spend time doing random things like that.

I've always been sceptical about those tests, do they really show up breeds? Lovely to hear there is still some progress there. Is there any developments between them and Lucy or is that just a forever no-no?

[booktigger]

I don't think hers showed up actually breeds, but I remember her carrying the dilute gene. The rescue Lucy is from did a post about one of their dogs that had been adopted, the owner was curious about what kind of dog she was, so had a genetic test done, she was a mix of 6 breeds, two I'd never heard of, the certificate said it looked at 6 generations, don't know how you can do that. No improvement with Lucy, she still keeps sitting at the door growling at them.

[Ruth B]

My thought with the breed gene testing is that there isn't a specific breed gene but a collection that most in that breed have, so there wouldn't be a Ragdoll gene, but a gene for the long fur, a gene for thick under coat, a gene for the colourpoint or bicolour marking, a gene for the blue eyes etc and if they have a certain number of certain genes then they can say there was likely a Ragdoll somewhere in the lineage. Dogs I would imagine are even more pronounced in their gene make up as so many breeds have such extreme characteristics. Then there is also the mitochondrial DNA which contains genes that can only come from the mother, and those on the Y chromosome that can only come from the Father, some of those might also be linked to certain breeds.

Part of me hopes that one day we will know enough about the different gene sequences to start to eliminate the problems that effect certain breeds, either through careful breeding or even through direct manipulation, unfortunately my opinion of human kind is low enough to think we may end up creating even more craziness in the process, i did hear rumors of someone trying to put a bioluminescence gene into some animals, and I have a feeling cats may have been included, so they would glow in the dark, part of me likes the idea, part of me is horrified.

[Mollycat]

I guess that's it as far as Lucy's concerned then, bless her. As long as the timeshare and segregation arrangements suit all the cats I guess Hoomans have to go along with whatever.

Cats are truly amazing ... the gene for long hair is in all of them, and long haired cats lack the gene that tells the hair to stop growing at short. The gene for blue eyes, there are two, but both are different forms of no pigment, one goes with the deafness and white while the other is the colourpoint temperature sensitive albino. Unless a breed is founded on a single unique mutation, I wouldn't have thought it possible to say with any certainty. But you never know for the future.

The breeder I bought Boo from freaked out when I told her he had early, mild renal insufficiency, at age 13/14. How was this possible, what did that mean for the 13 litters he sired and all their kittens and the lines, he was tested for PKD so how could this happen. I found myself patiently explaining, astounded at the lack of really basic knowledge about these wonderful and complex creatures, to a breeder of all people, that all felines large and small from the Pallas Cat to the tiger, all have a weak spot with their kidneys, and that you will never eliminate it because (like hyperthyroidism) it kicks in at the end of their breeding life, and so can never be bred out. Unless as Ruth says it turns out there is a gene for it, but I think that's very unlikely, I'd bet on it being due to their natural obligate carnivore diet. Not that more carbs would help, that's where diabetes and hyperthyroidism are more likely to hang out.

Bottom line is, we all have to die of something, and if we eliminated kidney failure other problems would take over, and having seen a 24 year old cat I'm not sure we'd all wish all our cats got like she did.

[booktigger]

Well, I'm not sure just how happy all 3 are with the timeshare arrangement, but it's the best they are going to get! I did wonder when something happens to Lucy and I got a more cat friendly cat, whether the new cat would have to be shut in my room every night (figured if I start it from the beginning they won't know any different) or whether they could mingle, but then wondered how fair it would be for all 3 to only ever see each other overnight? While the girls are getting more curious when I'm brushing my teeth and stuff, they still fly back at the slightest thing, so not sure they could relax fully with more access to the house.

That does surprise me that a breeder wouldn't know PKD isn't the only cause of kidney issues, and it's not unusual in a 13/14 year old. I had an over cautious vet once, Buster had been diagnosed with a rare kidney issue, my friend's 15 year old was diagnosed with kidney issues off a blood test and he immediately wanted to do an ultrasound 'to find the reason for kidney failure' - she took me along and I pointed out the most likely cause was age related and would doing a scan affect the treatment (that vet refused to do ultrasounds unless the cat was sedated, which was a bit ironic given what he wanted to scan for), so was it worth putting her through the stress of spending the whole day at the vets and getting over a sedation?

[Mollycat]

It is so nice to find a vet who is on the same level as the owner with how far to investigate issues or at least able to be honest and realistic and apply some common sense.

My Molly has started to venture into the stairwell while one of us takes the dog out. Only early morning or late night when the block is quiet, and only our floor and to the half landing, but that's after 8 years here, so C&C could still have all manner of surprises up their fluffy sleeves for you yet. I always thought Boo would have been the perfect fosterer's companion. He reminded me of my granddad, patient and gentle and kind no matter what you threw at him.

[Ruth B]

A good vet is important and worth their weight in gold, even when things seemed to be going through a rough patch with ours we hung in there because they had been so good before, I will never know whether saying something helped, if my voice was just one of many, or if something else happened, but the last few times we had to go, even during the Covid crisis it seemed to have returned to how it was, much to our relief. When my Fathe retired and my parents were downsizing and looking at various possibilities, they realised one thing, they would happily change doctors, opticians, banks etc. but if they could keep the same vet they would be happier, which is why they moved to Monmouth in the end.

I'm not sure if it is in the Ragdoll genes or the way they are nurtured as kittens, but Blue (I still find it amusing that you, Mollycat, had Boo and I had Blue and they could almost have been mistaken for each other) greeted everyone, human or cat, with the attitude of 'will you be my friend'. Humans loved it, i'll never forget the woman from Cats Protection trying to fill in the homecheck form and then go through the list of available cats while Blue was on the sofa beside her constantly headbutting her if she wasn't fussing him. Even one of our friends who is allergic to cats ended up with him on his knee and and encouraging him to roll around on his coat until he suddenly realised what he was doing, and that he wouldn't be able to wear the coat until it had been washed. Blue was just like that, he could scramble a humans mind without really trying to get the fuss he wanted.

[Mollycat]

Yes I love Boo and Blue too, though Boo was really Bobby and ended up Boo via Bobby-boo and my (unfounded) concern that they might not hear the difference between "Bobby" and "Mollly" but I underestimated them both - Molly flicks an ear even if her name is said mid sentence, which doesn't stop her having a collection of names including Poppet, Moggin, Moglet and more.

Boo wasn't a tart though. Having had at least 3 owners and as you know Rags being known for their loyalty, I think being sold on twice made him cling to me like glue and any other person could look but not touch, and he paraded just out of their reach to prove the point. He was also headshy with new people, and the first time he met a dog he attacked it, though he never attacked Snoop just hissed a bit but in under a month they were head to head sharing the sofa. But after a year or so he suddenly decided to adopt OH and I gradually became the morning cuddler and not much else. He would give me a few minutes then go to sleep for the day, waking up a little before 4.30 to perch on the sofa arm and complain loudly to OH demanding his full attention. It was wonderful, and comical. Somewhere I have a lovely picture of heavily tattooed manly arms wrapped lovingly and gently around this big floofy ball of blue eyed powder puff. I still find the rougher and tougher they look, the more poignant and beautiful such pictures are.

[booktigger]

Buster was like Blue with humans, the amount of times he was out and people would come to look at the foster cats and I'd open the door to 'do you have a white and black cat'? - and he would insist everyone stroked him (and I had to supervise when they left, as he liked to investigate cars!) - there was just one person who came to look that he snubbed, then the foster cat she came to view nipped her (and she wasn't that kind of cat) - she obviously went home empty handed. He hated other cats though, we had to have a rota system to stop him and my neighbours cat fighting, and he couldn't be trusted with dogs, my sister only brought her dog twice, first time he was only about 10 weeks old and he snapped at him, so the second time we stood outside and Buster chased him under my car, even though he was fully grown by that point, so bigger than the cat!

[Mollycat]

Buster sounds quite the character!

Sort of closer to topic, Molly had a massive breakthrough this morning. I think this one is bigger than the one time she let me stroke her tummy, when she came back from her radioiodine treatment.

Molly let me pick her up, and stayed calm while I carried her up one flight of stairs.

She went exploring in the stairwell of the block of flats as she sometimes does recently but on the next level down she thought the neighbour's door was home and couldn't understand why it was closed. She became quite upset but not panicky and as she didn't respond when I called or rattled treats, I had no other option but to pick her up and carry her. She let me.

It will be 8 years next week, and she has let me carry her in my arms. It was only 4 years ago she first trusted me to have both hands on her at the same time! She is by my side on the sofa sleeping and dreaming now, she will need to make sense in her mind of what just happened to her, so I feel really guilty taking the dog out then going to work early. She clearly wants me close by, as normally she would spend the morning on the bed and not with me.

Never, ever give up hope with the most extreme timid and unsocialised cats, just let go of all expectations, give them all the space and time in your world, and let them work their own magic.

[booktigger]

Yeah, he was a character! What a great breakthrough! Good that rather than freaking out and running away cos she panicked, that she let you pick her up instead, and then laid by you after, rather than ignore you.

I had quite a negative reaction this week, I'd gone brushing my teeth and Chanel wandered in and laid down in the doorway, so I sat on the floor reading and then threw a treat on the landing so she'd move without me spooking her, when I went back to bed, Lucy started throwing herself at the door and growling, needless to say Chanel didn't come in the bathroom last night when I brushed my teeth. I wouldn't mind, but as Lucy was on the bed when I left and on the floor when I came back in, I assumed she'd heard the dreamies bag opening so had given her a treat as well.

[fjm]

Wonderful news, Mollycat, and shows such strong trust that she did not run and accepted being carried. Molly really does seem to be making huge strides and of course each time she trusts you and nothing awful happens it makes the next step easier for her.

My animals tell me that chicken makes most things better, Booktigger- I'm sure Dreamies work just as well!

[Mollycat]

She has always been intelligent and forgiving when it comes to accidents, but I only tried to deceive her once and paid for it for many months after - lesson learned. It is just astounding, and all this time I've been afraid to try, or happy to let her be a cat that won't be picked up, or just grateful for the progress she has been able to make ... perhaps there comes a point when we are holding them back?

Oh gosh booktigger let's hope tonight or soon Chanel comes back. Is there any way you can keep some Dreamies in a non-Dreamies-bag container handy so as not to alert anyone else? But same for you as fjm says the more positives there are the less important these little negatives will become.

It's funny thing fjm how memory works because until this morning triggered it I'd forgotten that Molly started to trust me, I think wanted to trust me, very early on. I did work hard for it though, any time she was startled or unsure and I knew it was ok I would verbally reassure her and she did learn to trust very quickly that if I said it was ok and she could relax, it really was and she really could. I never told her a visitor was ok though, that is for her to judge, unless it was someone she already knew and liked but just made her jump.

[Ruth B]

Great news with Molly, one day I'll be able to pick Freyja up properly, but i won't be surprised if that is still years away. For the time being she is happy enough without being picked up, and the look she gives Tiggy when I am giving her a morning cuddle is hilarious, if she was human she would be stood there, wide eyed and mouth open in frightened astonishment. The fact that Tiggy loves a cuddle and is normally purring her head off, I think just confuses her more.

Reading this I take it I'm not the only person to have a pack of Dreamies in the bathroom cupboard, I find they are great for distracting Saturn while we get a mouse off him, if it is dead there is no problem dealing with it, but if it is alive they are enough to let us deal with the mouse while he deals with half a dozen Dreamies, so he doesn't see where the mouse gets released. I always imagined people looking on with bemusement, each time I check the bathroom before shopping, Toilet paper, check, soap, check, Shampoo, check toothpaste, check, Dreamies, check.

[booktigger]

Knowing Lucy, even if I put them in a different tub, she would hear the treat being thrown and still expect something - I just put a tub of skin and hair treats in my room, so she thinks she is getting a treat, but really they are to help her clumping fur (actually bought for Coco, but C & C both refused to eat the fish flavoured treats - Lucy was just grateful for getting something!!)

I'm happy to think this is all I'm going to get with the girls, so anything on top is a bonus, I have no expectations of every getting more. That's funny Ruth, they say that confident cats help bring out shy ones, but clearly not in Freyja's case

[Mollycat]

Dreamies are banned in our house I'm afraid. Molly came with half a pack of them and when they were finished I didn't buy any more, they got Webbox sticks and wet food so the Webstix as I call them were for something chewy. Then someone got them Dreamies for Christmas, and the Dreamies carried on for a while, until Molly became quite aggressive about them. So we switched to Felix Crispies and although she is enthusiastic about them there isn't the same level of demanding and telling off. I since googled Dreamies addiction and it seems Molly is far from alone.

Really I don't like giving them anything other than a Webstick at bedtime and real meat titbits, but hey, this isn't a perfect world and I'm no saint.

Always astonished me how Henry could hear 'his' cupboard being opened from upstairs. How do you even hear a cupboard opening? But I've read that cats have much better hearing than dogs, both in range of hertz and volume. Dogs obviously have the edge in the nose department but not by as big a margin as you might imagine. It's just that cats refuse to put their senses to work for us!

[booktigger]

I don't tend to buy proper treats, but friends always buy the cats treats for Christmas - the girls get those, Lucy has arthritis treats, kidney treats and skin treats - or her 'crumbs', which is a tiny bit of what I've had and the plate to lick - she doesn't draw blood anymore trying to take food off you. Lucy is that bad that she can be outside, I'll open a bag of crisps and next thing you know, she's at your feet, so it isn't even cat treats with her, just anything that might be interesting!

[booktigger]

Well, I've had the girls 4 years now. Still can't touch them, but they do interact in their own way - Chanel has started asking me to play when I go down in the morning when it's their night out, and thanks to working from home, I normally have 5 mins to spare and oblige, although my working from home changes next month. I think a mixture of extra time due to working from home and sticking with a quieter lifestyle and more time with them (I'm sat in with them now, for the second time today), has definitely helped. Lucy was still flying at the closed door when it was their night out the other day though, so no change there! One new thing, Chanel has suddenly taken a liking to the rocking chair I sit on, so I now have a deckchair in here too, as sitting on the floor wasn't comfortable. Neighbour thinks it's either the new blanket (but I got that in Feb) or it going cooler, but that's never bothered them before, although it did take me all week to get a pic of them together, so they aren't quite as close now Chanel is 4.

[booktigger]

Coco did something today that I think might be quite a big thing - it's not the first time actually, but I didn't twig what she'd done the first time! I was just waking up at 6.10 when I heard a weird yowling, so I got out of bed, and found a toy on the landing (which ironically I saw in their room a few days ago and wondered where it had come from, haven't seen that one for a while, mind you, they are tea leafs though, so they might have pinched it from downstairs) and Coco sat in the doorway of their room looking at me. I told her she was a good girl and threw the toy back in their room, fed them and then went back to bed. When I got up the second time, she'd put it outside my bedroom door. The first time, she did the yowling, I got up, but didn't twig the connection with the toy on the landing. Hopefully bringing me a present is a positive sign.

[Mollycat]

I think it is. With extreme timid cats where we cannot reasonably expect the classic normal signs, being awake to their way of connecting is so important. Now you mention it I remember a toy mouse on the bed.

But Coco just made an active and free choice to interact with you. That's a pretty big deal!

Can't help wondering if they would have made less or more progress if they had been separated, if having the safety and interaction of each other means they are under less pressure to connect with a human.

[Ruth B]

Congratulation, I think it is a big step.

I've recently had one myself with Freyja. I thought after finally getting her to the vets it would be a long time before she would trust me again, but no, with a couple of days she was back to her normal self. Then a few weeks ago I was sat on the bed, legs under the bedspread watching some TV on my IPad with Tiggy sat on my thighs, not particularly an uncommon occurrence. Then I felt Freyja move up and settle on my calves and stay there until I had to move. since then she has done it several times, never when Tiggy isn't there first, although she has come up and thought about it. One day I'm sure she will, but it will be in her own time, not mine.

As for whether Coco and Chanel would have got used to humans quicker if separated, they might have, but I think the stress they would have gone through for the first few weeks or months of separation would have been so detrimental to them. In the end, those of us that have had these nervous cats understand that we love them on their terms, not on ours, and know that those small actions that are perfectly normal for a well socialised cat are big steps for our cats, and each one is a great delight to us because of it.

[booktigger]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if I was reading too much into it. They were separated for 3 weeks before I got them, I think Chanel could have come round, as the first few days she would purr while you stroked her (once she'd drawn blood on you), but then when they started cuddling together, she refused to relax. She was given up for being wild, but they'd only had her a matter of weeks, and she'd been born outside, so very unrealistic expectations. Despite her being here since such a young age, she can't let go of her fear of certain things, playing with feathers on sticks and gently touching their back is normally a good start with feral kittens to get them used to touch, she's 4 now and still jumps when a toy accidentally touches her (and it is accidental, I know she hates it), although she will sniff fingers, she's never enjoyed taking treats off your hand, whereas Coco will, as long as they are the right kind. I don't know if Coco would have been OK in a home without Chanel though, but it's nice to see they haven't lost their bond, I've walked into them cuddling on the rocking chair a few times this past week

[Mollycat]

In the end, those of us that have had these nervous cats understand that we love them on their terms, not on ours, and know that those small actions that are perfectly normal for a well socialised cat are big steps for our cats, and each one is a great delight to us because of it.

Absolutely. Not only that but I think they are our greatest teachers, because we have to pay attention so much more carefully and take much more subtle and unusual cues from them. They can force us to slow down, calm down, live a healthier and less hectic life, and pay much more attention to all the living things in our lives. They can even improve our relationships with other people, if we listen to their fear when voices are raised and so to avoid terrorising the cat we have conversations not shouting matches.

Congratulations on your breakthrough too, interesting that Freyja is taking the reassurance of Tiggy being there to tell her it's ok!

Ah I thought I remembered something about them being separated and coping differently. In the end it really doesn't matter what makes them happy, so long as they are, and that they have the freedom to be the best and happiest they are able to be, on their terms and in their own way. I often wonder where Molly would have been if I hadn't been there, what kind of people and home might have helped her better or less well than I have. Not judging, just things I ponder in the hope they will help me do things better in future.

[booktigger]

I often have similar thoughts about Lucy, I remember once, I'd not had her long and me and a friend were having a heated debate upstairs, Lucy walked round downstairs yowling till we shut up, so a house hold with more than one person wouldn't have been good for her, and with how bad her food aggression is around vegetarian food, I dread to think what she'd have been like if she'd lived with meat eaters! I'm glad I've ignored my neighbours advice with all 3, Lucy definitely would have been worse, she needed love and reassurance rather than punishing, and I think the girls are calmer as they know I won't try and touch them, so they can relax more around me.

[Ruth B]

I remember when I got Saturn and Freyja. I had been set to view another pair of cats, nice girls, nothing to say good or bad, just a pair of cats needing a home together. Then the day or so before I went, I saw Freyja advertised, and read about her story, and my heart just went out to her, so I asked if I could see her and Saturn as they came as a pair. Saturn no problem, happy and confident. Freyja was a white blur running from hidey hole to hidey hole, I barely even saw her, but maybe being a bit over confident in my abilities I decided I had enough experience to cope with her. While the woman that ran the rescue was sorting out paperwork and getting Saturn in a carrier (Freyja was going to have to come over later when they caught her), the woman's partner, told me that he really thought Freyja was going to be a permanent resident, people just don't take on cats like that, particularly not when it is a pair of black and white cats involved. So where would Freyja be if I hadn't taken her, possibly some one else would have taken her, there are a few like us who are willing to take on the less sociable cats, but it is also quite likely that she would be living as one of the semi ferals that the charity has, looked after, access to a good cat run and enough food and warm places to sleep, but with far less human contact, no rescue however hard they try, has the time to spend with the cats as a person at home has.

When I got them, I was told that Freyja and Saturn had become friends and she was learning some confidence from him. Not long after I got them home and introductions had been made, I noticed Freyja latch on to Tiggy for confidence. Tiggy was getting on and was a bit cranky, but Saturn was a bit too boisterous. She has always taken her lead from Tiggy ever since. Part of me has dreaded the day Tiggy is no longer with us, and I'm surprised she has lasted this long, but she keeps plodding on, and each day she is with us Freyja does get a little more confident, what will happen when Tiggy finally passes on, I don't know, 6 months ago, i would have said it would be a real set back for Freyja, but now I'm thinking it may not be so bad. I can only wait and see, and wait and see just how long Tiggy has.

[booktigger]

That reminds me of when I went to pick Lucy up, I'm friendly with the people who run the rescue, but they were off, so the person on that day thought I was just going to foster Lucy and the look on her face when I asked for the paperwork to adopt her was priceless. They had 3 hard to home cats, who'd all been waiting for more than 12 months, it was so hard to decide, but funnily enough, the other two were homed within a month of me taking Lucy. Fingers crossed Freyja continues to improve when something happens to Tiggy.

[Mollycat]

They can really turn a surprise on us, just because their relationships are way more complex than even seasoned owners can understand.

I was blissfully unaware of any issues with Molly and I didn't pick her. I rang the rescue with my long list of requirements, my spoilt brat list, and asked for help. Miraculously within days they were asked to rehome Molly, "indoor cat by choice" and "a bit shy until she gets used to the voice" but she sounded like a match for Boo and happy not to go out so I almost didn't care what she would be like to me, I didn't get her for me. So long as she was happy in the flat and she and Boo got on, nothing else mattered. Maybe she wasn't like this in her old home, who knows!

But that's how I will get any future cats too, I will explain my circumstances and ask for the least rehomeable that fits, and I don't want to see them, fall in love with the wrong one, or have to reject any. Let the people who want cuddly or ginger or not too old get what they want and I'll take the ones nobody wants every day and twice on Sundays - they are the most challenging and the most rewarding.

[booktigger]

Lucy didn't fully match my list of requirements - I wanted a female cat, over the age of 12, who'd been there the longest. I could either have a female over the age of 12 who'd been there a matter of weeks, or a choice of 3 females under the age of 12 who'd been there over 12 months, I was torn between Lucy and Willow, I went with Lucy as Willow had to be in a room by herself as she attacked any cat who they tried to put in with her, and between foster cats and neighbours cat, I didn't think that was a good fit. Not that Lucy has been much better with foster and neighbours cats!!

[Mollycat]

Was Lucy much under 12? Maybe it's HER house and however friendly she may have been in shelter this one is to be defended at all costs from all invaders! You never truly know how they are going to be, as they can be so different with different people in different environments. My ex took on two allegedly inseparable sisters who had to live one upstairs and one downstairs as they couldn't be in the same room.

I have to say now, having made huge leaps of progress in the last year or so, Molly is almost a "normal" cat. The challenges that have been forced on her and us have made such a dramatic change, much more so in the last 4 years than in the first 4 years. I don't expect to ever walk her into the carrier like I have the other 8, but I'm starting to wonder if the carrier trauma is more to do with physical discomfort caused by the way we pick her up for speed and reliability. She didn't protest at all when I had to pick her up properly to rescue her from downstairs.

[booktigger]

She was 8 when I adopted her. She wasn't overly friendly at the rescue, there was only one cat they could put in a room with her, they had wanted me to adopt both, but at the rescue Lucy was more of a lap cat, and June was more playful (she was only 4) and I thought they were too different for a one person household, especially as I was still fostering and doing other voluntary work then. And I got Lucy home and she barely sat on me for ages, and when she did, you couldn't do anything, even check your phone, or she'd get off.